Eclipse vs Mustang

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by muztang2k3, Oct 6, 2003.


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eclipse or mustang

  1. Eclipse

    8 vote(s)
    7.0%
  2. Mustang

    80 vote(s)
    70.2%
  3. 2004 solara

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. Yo Mama

    22 vote(s)
    19.3%
  5. toyota sprinter trueno

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  1. TwinTurboRT

    TwinTurboRT Founding Member

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    Okay, quick lesson on breaking AWD parts. (EDIT- misused the word "to")

    The reason why you'll see DSM's with broken parts (and expect to see more with WRX and EVO) is bog/break/burn.

    You launch too low, the car bogs.
    You launch higher than the bog, but not enough to burn- you break.
    You launch and burn -
    Subcategory A) Burn the clutch
    Subcategory B) Burn the tires

    AWD mitsu style means there is a center differential (typically Viscous Coupling Unit Type - liquid filled) front open wheel diff, and rear posi type diff.

    You launch, in boost, generate 300FT/lbs on a moderately boosted motor. That transfers to clutch, clutch turns input shaft, that transfers to VCU, VCU senses wheels aren't moving, no spin, distributes torque on it's split (45/55 or 40/60 typically), then power is transfered to front halfshafts (remember open diff), or to the output shaft, into the transfercase, then thru driveshaft to rear end, to halfshafts - from all halfshafts to wheels.

    Okay, so you launch low, you don't hit boost, or enough power, the motor makes power, hits all those moving parts and they drag the motor down - thus the twisting slows mid-part (depending on how badly you bog it could be at any shaft, diff or whatnot) - this isn't easy on parts as the stress enters higher, and then inertia causes it to unwind backward, then power comes on to wind back up. Less likely to break parts, but still hurts them.

    Okay, you launch high enough you don't bog... but not high enough to burn. Power comes on, and it's a lot, and it doesn't back down- but you have enough grip that it fights pretty even against the power- this is where you find your weakest part. Twist happens, and you basically over power the part due to SHOCKLOADING - lots of twist here, and no movement there. It is why most DSM's break parts- they make enough to launch hard, but not enough to burn.

    Okay, you launch high enough to burn- and you are slow to remove your foot from the clutch pedal- it spins and heats a little, if you are lucky (or have a clutch made for it) it grabs slowly, applying the power smoothly and your 60' suffers, the clutch took most of the damage. Not the best, but you'll simply need more clutches. If you aren't lucky or the clutch can't handle it- you'll smoke it and need a new clutch pretty dang quick!

    Okay, you launch high enough to burn- your clutch holds and you have more power than grip- your tires spin momentarily, the SHOCK was relieved by breaking the grip to the pavement, and as the tire spins it heats slightly, and grips better, you applied full power to the wheels without the shock and driveline breakage.

    This is how it works in a nutshell. The issue still remains that if you are running a part that can't take the full power- you're screwed- you can overpower parts while driving, they just aren't built for the power.

    However most people who break driveline parts on a DSM or 3/S do so at the launch (or the damage occurs at the launch, they twist partially, and the next shift that is botched it breaks). You can shock break parts at less than the needed actual power level to simply break it by force.

    That's why it matters to actually LEARN a car. You can't simply do a 7000RPM dump without knowing why you are gonna break something. I can do a 7000RPM dump and not break something.
    Power doesn't just happen in a turbo car- if you have the clutch in - no load- and hammer the gas- you won't be in boost. So if you side step the clutch- you are doing so without boost actually being there- less power (still as much N/A power as 2.0L of fury can make) and snap or bog.

    You can't get in a car that is AWD turbo and drive it like you do any other type of car. A mustang's axles aren't that strong either- but you only have 2 tires (quick math- 2 tires at 275mm wide (typical 275/45/17) gives you 550mm of width times the length of the contact patch divided by the percentage of patch making contact- as opposed to being tread pattern gap. Now take a talon running 255/40/17 and you get 1020mm of width possible (technicially if you were paying attention earlier you'd find that it's only 765 since the front is open diff) - which one is gonna have a harder time overpowering the grip of the tires?) to lay down the power- much easier to break them loose, and thus avoid the shock. (this is one of the reasons behind the myth that slicks are bad - they don't break parts, how you launch on them breaks parts :) ) Now yes different tire types run more % of contact or softer compound- I'm not going to get into it that far- but simply put- because you spin some in a mustang, you avoid breaking just as many parts.

    Now then, AWD DOES NOT NEED DRAG RADIALS - not until about the 10's or 9's. You'll need a posi front long before then :) Average good 60' on the street or track in an AWD car should be between 1.65 and 1.75 seconds. That's being done on Z rated radials on 16-17" rims. I've seen guys go as fast as 1.54 on 18" radials, but he did have a 300M (metal type, not car make) output shaft (also ran 11.009@122).

    Powershifting? As in not lifting the throttle- yeah it makes it easier, powershifting as in no clutch WOT? NO. That's nuts. :D

    Go to www.dsmtalk.com or call up Burshur, Extreme, WrightTouch, Hahn, any DSM shop and talk to the guys.

    The true long and short of Mustang VS DSM is this- do you like never spinning tires, quick stoplight action with the "feel" of a much slower car? Or do you like worrying about traction, feeling faster than a McLaren, able to run people down who got a jump?
    The Mustang is about 100X more FUN to drive. The DSM is effortless to launch (once you know how ;) ) although it lacks some of the fun.

    Course take this one step further into handling, and things are another story yet again. Both can handle well. AWD means WOT exits, much less worry, although once you start to slide- you're screwed. RWD is MUCH better known, it's what is typically raced and taught and is the "accepted norm" of all things curvy. You'll almost never drift in an AWD. Although you may not have the need.

    I'm done. :D
  2. stoney

    stoney Founding Member

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    So basicly in an awd car you want the tires to spin? Wouldnt that mean you just have to get some cheaper z rated tires?
  3. Biggeley

    Biggeley New Member

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    To the notion that you can get a DSM "easily" into the 11's and have it reliable is just pure crap. Go talk to the NABR guys about that.. Even 12's isn't attainable by most people, and the "hundreds of dollars" to get into the 12's is possible but kinda pointless, becuase you're running 116 octane race gas and 20+ pounds of boost on stock components.. It's a hell of a lot of stress on the engine and turbo anyway..

    I've owned 2 dsm's; a 2g and a 1g.. Both in the 13's of course. One of them had lots of tranny problems, and the other one suffered from a bad case of "phantom knock" and never ran to its potential.. I sold the 2g before it could get into any real problems (other than tranny) but the 1g was the biggest maintenance nightmare..

    I'm glad I got out of it and moved to a real car.... But I have friends who race them, and I just feel bad for them, for the amount of money and time they waste on them..
  4. 83RedStangGT

    83RedStangGT New Member

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    Have had both ...

    I had a 1990 Eagle Talon TSI. Loved that car. Spanked a massaged 350 Nova with it. That was fun!

    However, they are right. The cars, for all their fun, can be expensive to work on. I prefer wrenching on my own car, so my 83 fits my profile better.

    She's slow, not low, but I do love her so!
  5. Mustang Ricky

    Mustang Ricky New Member

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    huh, that would be true 5 years ago but I don't see many 5.0's running around and if you do, they are usually not stock. most 5.0's are in the junkyard from those who ran them hard...usually into a tree or telephone pole.
  6. Ruffrider

    Ruffrider Founding Member

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    I say get a decent fox body, get a H/C/I on the car, and go smoke every car on that list :nice:
  7. MustangMuscleV8

    MustangMuscleV8 New Member

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    what year model mustang are you talking about?
  8. bgjohnson

    bgjohnson Founding Member

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    "TT"man i respect sombody that knows a type of car that well, and then some on other cars.I would like an eclispe eventually just to mess with or I could just go with an SVO mustang which is always somthing I've really thought was cool, but they aren't that plentiful so not many people have experiance with them, but have you decided on what car you want yet?
  9. runningmole

    runningmole Founding Member

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    A buddy at work is running mid 11s w/ his gen 1 Eclipse. AWD, ported intake, ported head, decent turbo, and all the other stuff. By his word, he's made over 100 passes total on the car, about 30 w/ his current setup.
  10. red89stanggt

    red89stanggt Founding Member

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    I just bought a mint 91 Talon TSi AWD for 2400.. Its perfect in every aspect.. If someone wants to host pictures ill be more than glad to put them up just to prove there are talons around in prefect shape for under 3k..

    Jon
  11. jerry beach

    jerry beach Founding Member

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    That may be more true up north where they all rusted out from the salt on the roads. But down here in FL there are 5.0's everywhere. I see several every day, and I dont drive around much. Sure some are heavily modded, but most appear pretty stock. Mustangs rule, imports are well, un-American. I think the new LS1's are some of the fastest cars on the street. They are tough to beat at the track with anything but a dedicated race car. But there is no price comparison at all there. FWD is BS. It has become prevalent because its cheaper to manufacture and better for gas mileage. Its far less durable and more expensive to replace parts, I wont work on that stuff.
  12. Michael Yount

    Michael Yount Advanced Member

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    Great article in this month's Hot Rod about a 91 Talon. Factory sheet metal and glass, stripped interior, stock shifter, stock oil pump, water pump and rockers, stock final drive and axles. Owner estimates 850HP at the wheels with close to a thousand at the crank. Running a single turbo producing 33-37 psi of boost plus nitrous. Runs 8.76 at 166 in the quarter. Shifts occur at anywhere from 9300 to 8200 rpm; through the traps at 8200 rpm in 4th gear. Launches at 5500 with clutch slippage to keep from breaking driveline parts. 60 foot times in the 1.45 second range.
  13. corvette killer

    corvette killer New Member

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    Nothing technical here, but I raced an eclipse(2nd gen) with awd and some really loud aftermarket turbo about 2 weeks ago and completely smoked him. He acted like it was insane that a n/a 302 beat him. He kept asking me if it was supercharged. Not yet.
  14. kuuldigs

    kuuldigs New Member

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    I've had a first gen eclipse that ran 13's, with some mods, but I sold that for a mustang and it was definitly worth it. When it comes to the bang for your buck the mustang is better. I always found eclipse parts to be expensive and the work is time consuming, not to mention the bloody knuckles.
  15. kuuldigs

    kuuldigs New Member

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    ^^that would be John Shepperd, his car is insane^^
  16. Roland69

    Roland69 Sergeant Tangnet

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    I didn't read all this thread but this is my thoughts on the eclipse. I think they are fun to drive when they are not yours but I would never want to own one. They are $$$$ to fix and break all the time I would rather have a stang anyday and trust it to do whatever I feel like doing with it that day. But I will admit out of most imports in my price range if I were to buy one it might be an eclipse.
  17. timeless2

    timeless2 Vi Veri Veni Versum Vicus Vici Admin Dude

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    Why is this thread being brought back?
  18. Roland69

    Roland69 Sergeant Tangnet

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    I thought it was new lol
  19. 5.0nmalecek

    5.0nmalecek New Member

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    FWD, thats all i gotta say unless its GSX
    Everybody always talks **** about Ford undependablity but i've had my 1990 mustang for a while now and ive been able to fix everything that went wrong never broke down on me once... my friend has a newer eclipse and hates it he cant even keep up with everything going wrong

    People that dont own an eclipse like them
    People that own eclipses hate them

    PEople that dont own mustangs tend to hate them
    People that own mustangs love them

    i know people will dissagree but thats just personal experience
  20. gcwh02

    gcwh02 New Member

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    im not familiar with imports b/c im not a fan :SNSign: .. Anyways don't these eclipses and imports need tuned all the time like after basically every mod they do. Again, not too familiar with rice, but i know a guy with a eclipse that wanted to mod it but didnt because he would need a tune all the time he said. Also know a guy with a STI (i know its way different than a eclipse) but he said he wasted more money on dyno tunes that his car. I sure as hell wouldnt want that.

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