Fuel Delivery or PATTS?

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by reddmann, Dec 1, 2012.


  1. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    I have a 99 Mustang GT, the other morning i drove to the store in which it was running fine, came back and parked it for literally 10 mins. I went to start it to go to work and it sputtered and died. I replaced the fuel pump because i didnt hear it kick on and the 20 Amp fuse is good. I used a test light to see if the pk/bk wire coming out of the Inertia switch has power and it does with the key in the run position. The battery died while trying to start it in which i charged and put back on it, now the odometer reads ------- and the fan comes on with the key. And the fuel pump will still not kick on. Any suggestions.? Much appreciated.
     
    #1
  2. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    When to odometer reads all dashes this usually means that the PCM and cluster are not talking to each other. The 1st thing to suspect is no power to the PCM.

    The cooling fan running at initial key on also says that the CCRM does NOT see the PCM.

    Confirm the battery terminals are clean and tight. Pay special attention the the negative battery terminal as it is bad about splitting. Next confirm that the ground connection around the radiator core support are clean and tight.

    Check the 20 amp PCM fuse in the BJB. Here's link to the fuse panel layout:

    Next confirm there is +12 volts to the COP RED wire with the key on. If no power, suspect a CCRM problem.

    To confirm a bad CCRM additional tests are needed. I have posted several times how to test the CCRM. But it will help to have a full set of wiring diagrams. If interested in getting a set for yourself, PM.
     
    #2
    reddmann likes this.
  3. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    Thank you for replying, I cant tell you how much i have been googling different things that it could be. CCRM, PCM, Inertia switch, yadda yadda. Thank you for replying, im gonna go test everything you wrote and reply with results. Thanks again.
     
    #3
  4. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    So i went and checked the PCM fuse, its good. while i had the test light out i went back to the Inertia switch and checked for power. On the pk/bk wire coming out, will it have power for 2-3 secs and quit or will it have it all the time? I didnt have any power coming out of it. Also, the theft light remains blinking after 3-4 secs with the key on. This is why i might have though the aPATTS was enabled. I didnt understand what you were talking about when you said COP RED wire.? where is it at? It seems like there is alot of problems with this on this time range. Thanks for your help. Ive literally asked everyone i can think of to ask.
     
    #4
  5. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    ccrm is good, I have been reading your post on other forums, you know your stuff. The odometer just shows -------- as well. I tried other keys, unlocking the door with the key, everything. Have you every heard of someone calling a locksmith to fix the pats issue? Im thinking it has something to do with the pcm. like the pats is keeping it from reading it or something, thats the reasons for the -------- and the fan to come on with the key. I dont know, i do need to get it fixed though, only car i have and im in california by my lonesome..lol Thanks man
     
    #5
  6. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    This is NOT a PATS problem. IMO calling a locksmith would be a waste of $$.

    Have you tested the COP RED wire? Note, this is not the only test needed to prove the CCRM is good. This could also be an ignition switch problem.

    If you really want to fix this, you will have to be willing to perform the tests and post the results. A good Volt-Ohm meter (VOM) and a set of wiring diagrams are a must. If interested let me know via PM.
     
    #6
  7. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    I dont know where the COP RED wire is. Fully charged battery, ALL Fuses are good, New fuel pump, And it fires with Starting fluid. Theft Light is Blinking continuously with the key on and Odometer is reading -------. If you can walk me though this I would be so much appreciated And will post results after every attempt. Thanks Again.
     
    #7
  8. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    OK, let's start first with COP. COP stands for coil on plug. Those are the things that set on top of the spark plugs for the 99+ model year Mustangs.

    There are two wires running to each COP. The wire color will be a red wire and a signal return wire that is a different color of each COP. Using a Volt-Ohm meter (VOM), read the voltage at the red wire with with key on. However, since you stated that the motor starts on starting fluid, I suspect that you will find +12 volts as expected.

    Further, the fact the motor starts on starting fluid confirms this is not a PATS issue.

    Tell us about any other recent work done to the car. Radio install? HID install? Wreck? Rodent activity? This is somewhat unusual set of symptoms (not typical).
     
    #8
  9. ked263

    ked263 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Bro , I am having a problem that is almost the same as yours. 03 GT

    see this video for my car while starting it



    you will see that before even putting the keys in the car you can read the Odometer "-------"
    had this problem for few days, the car is running normally EXCEPT for this "-------" and had a few STARTING problems were the key was not working right , and sometimes was able to use a replica key to start the car

    And my BATTERY keep loosing it's charges every 24 hours if not started

    for few days, that was the problem, I took it to some shops, where they all tested the battery and the alternator and both were fine they said might be the ECU, also was good, as I had another one home , I put it and had the same problem ,
    anyway , to sum where I am now .

    Right now , I still have the battery problem , the car is running fine, no "--------" reading when the key is not on , BUT when I start that car SOMETIMES it BLINK "---------" for few times while CRANKING and when I TURN OFF the car, the reading " ------ " stay for FEW Seconds then turn off like usual normal, I have a strong feeling that this is the BATTERY losing power for some internal problem in it, and will get it replaced soon ,
    a friend said it might be the alternator diode in the alternator, yet my alternator is new .

    hope my info were good and helpfull and hope both of us can solve this problem
     
    #9
  10. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    About a 2 weeks ago i left my headlights on. I got a jump of course, no problems drove it up until that morning that i went to start it and it wouldnt do anything. I cranked it until the battery was dead, trying to hear if the fuel pump would come on. After putting a brand new battery on it, making sure the terminals were clean, good grounds, good fuses, I turn the key on and the fan runs all the time with the odometer reading ------. No electrical work has been done, its parked on concrete so no rodents, and has low miles in very good shape. I did notice when the first battery was going dead it sounded like the CCRM was clicking, i dont know if this is normal or not. It doesnt do it with the new battery. As far as the PATS. I figured that wasnt the problem cause it would fuel. I was gonna take off the CCRM this morning and have it tested but they didnt have the correct hook up at Oreilys. Ford doesnt know, every mechanic ive talked to doesnt know. Im lost man. Oh and like i said put new fuel pump on and Im thinking that was a waste of money, the filter was pretty nasty though.
     
    #10
  11. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    ked263, your problem is most likely in the ignition switch. There are multiple gangs inside of the switch and I suspect that the A3 gang (RD/BK) is staying engerized. The input to fuse F2.5 should be off when the key is off. While the cluster is displaying all "----", To confirm, pull fuse F2.5. This should cause the cluster to go blank. Confirm if there is voltage in the F2.5 input as it should be zero with the key off.

    The battery is running down because the A3 gang circuit is being powered when the car should be off.

    A new ignition switch may fix you right up.
     
    #11
  12. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    Burns, I will try this and post results ASAP since i have pretty much tried every other thing in the books. I appreciate your time and im sure others do too. Ive been reading that it could be a computer problem....ehhhh, like i said, ill try this first.lol thanks again.
     
    #12
  13. ked263

    ked263 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    9
    by " IGNITION SWITCH" you are not talking about the where the KEY should go, am I right ?
    if you are talking about the ignition switch "I will add the word BOX" that is under the steering
    here is it's photo

    [​IMG]

    I tried to replace it , but still have the same problem.
    I did not yet try to replace the key switch yet, if this could fix the problem then I will try it :)
    I read somewhere that this problem could be from bad alternator diode.
     
    #13
  14. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    Ked263, Just wondering if you bothered to perform the F2.5 fuse test before replacing parts?

    Also as a reminder, the problem could be from an overheated connector that is allowing two wires to touch that shouldn't. Without the test results there's nothing to cross check against. Nor do we have confirmation that the failure actually is what we think it might be.

    Did you inspect the electrical connections under the dash looking for evidence of overheating?

    In answer to your question, if the problem is in the ignition switch, it would be in the electronics not in the mechanical key cylinder. So I am not suggesting that the part where the key actually goes needs to be replaced.

    I have often stated out many trouble shooting posts with a note about the charging system and it's importance to today's car. IMO it's never a bad idea to CONFIRM the battery and charging system. Especially since it's so easy to test a battery and alternator.
     
    #14
  15. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    Hey burns, So i read that i need to confirm fuse F2.2, F2.8, F2.34, CCRM pin#24(RD), CCRM pin#5(DG/YE) has power with the key on before i can start thinking of any crazy PCM problems. If this is the case is there a diagram or something that i can look at that translates what these fuses are? Like numbers or something. Im gonna go ahead and do the ignition test before i start buying an ignition as well with F2.5. I know there has to be a fuse in there that will shut off the ------- on the dash, if i find it..well nevermind, one step at a time. :eek: I know there under the dash just dont know where. Thanks
     
    #15
  16. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    I found a diagram for the fuse box. With the key on I am getting NO power to f2.2 and 2.8, which according to my diagram it says E ngine Controls for both of them. I would think its suppost to have some kind of power to engine controls with the key on? Anywho. F2.34, pin 24 & 5 both have power as well as fuse F2.34, which is PATS, CCRM, and instrument cluster. I dont know if your above post was for me or the other guy but i tested 2.5 with and without key on. With the key on it has power going in and without the key on it has none. Thats all i have. My dash is still -------and the theft light remains to blink even when attempting to start. I know you have suggestions man. Thanks again.
     
    #16
  17. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    Reddmann, You are absolutely correct that fuse F2,2 and F2.8 must have power with the key on if the motor is going to run. Do you recall very early on this thread my requesting for you to CONFIRM power to the COP red wire? Did you ever do this?

    I ask because the COP red wire, fuse F2.2, fuse F2.8, and the PCM are basically driven from the same circuit. Recall that it was stated that all "---" in the cluster usually means that the PCM is not getting power.

    The exact details of the tests and were there is power and there isn't power is important as it narrows down where the problem most likely is.

    For a no power to fuse F2.2/F2.8 the usual cause is a bad CCRM. However, to know for certain more detailed tests are needed. Other possible causes include a bad ground, bad ignition switch, wiring harness fault, or blown fuse (you did check all of the fuses right?).

    I have posted several times how to trouble shoot CCRM issues.

    I'm going to send you a PM regarding how to get more detailed one on one help.
     
    #17
  18. ked263

    ked263 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    9
    reddmann, I think we both on the same boat :)
    burns, when I took the car first time to check the battery I asked them to do that, but I will do it my self again to make sure :)
     
    #18
  19. reddmann

    reddmann New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Oceanside, CA
    I forgot to mention that i did test the COP RED wires and they were hot as well with Key on. I did have blown fuse but it was to Cig Lighter. no big deal
     
    #19
  20. wmburns

    SN Certified Technician

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    69
    Location:
    Houston Texas
    Reddmann, For the 1999 MY, there are a limited number of places where there could be a break that would have power at the COP red wire but no power at F2.2 and F2.8.

    One place is in the CJB itself.

    The other place is connector C213. C213 location is listed as "Behind I/P, at RH cowl". A set of wiring diagrams will show the exact location of the connector. But it might be a good idea to inspect the area around the PCM for evidence of water/rodent activity.
     
    #20

Share This Page