Hci Computer Problem

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by 88vertgeetee, Jun 3, 2013.


  1. 88vertgeetee

    88vertgeetee Member

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    I don't know what to check anymore. Timing is good. It's got tw heads f303 cam and tf intake. A9p ecu maf conversion with 24 lb injectors and 65 mm tb. I keep getting bogging every now and then while cruising around 3000 rpm. Then it goes away and drives pretty strong but ill get what sounds like a slight misfir or small pop the whole time. I want to change to an a9l but won't be able to for a little while. Is there any way to test and see if its the a9p ecu or should I just get a a9l reman. It sounds good and has a nice idle then goes to crap after start driving. I'd love some help as I've always got excellent tips from you guys . Thank you
    #1
  2. FoxMustangLvr

    FoxMustangLvr Advanced Member

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    Is your MAF calibrated for 24lb injectors? Did you upgrade your fuel pump when you increased the injector size?
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  3. 88vertgeetee

    88vertgeetee Member

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    Yes I installed a new 155 lph fuel pump and maf is for 24 lb injectors
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  4. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL SN Certified Technician Founding Member

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    Dump the codes: Codes may be present even if the Check Engine Light (CEL) isn't on.

    Dumping the computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

    Revised 26-July-2011. Added need to make sure the clutch is pressed when dumping codes.

    Codes may be present even if the check engine light hasn’t come on, so be sure to check for them.

    Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

    Post the codes you get and I will post 86-93 model 5.0 Mustang specific code definitions and fixes. I do not have a complete listing for 94-95 model 5.0 Mustangs at this time.

    Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. On a manual transmission car, be sure to press the clutch to the floor.
    Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

    [​IMG]

    The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

    89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

    [​IMG]

    The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


    WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

    What to expect:
    You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and driveablity problems

    Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

    Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, and clutch (if present) is pressed to the floor, and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

    Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

    Your 86-88 5.0 won't have a working Check Engine Light, so you'll need a test light.
    See AutoZone Part Number: 25886 , $10
    [​IMG]



    Alternate methods:
    For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

    Or for a nicer scanner see Equus - Digital Ford Code Reader (3145) – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30-$36.
    #4
  5. wyteelx

    wyteelx Founding Member

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    Listen to This Guy ^^^^^. Best advice IMO is be thorough you will find it. Just went through similar stuff , followed his advice and no more issues. Thanks by the way there J.
    #5
  6. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt" SN Certified Technician Founding Member

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    What transmission is in the car? A 5-spd? AOD?

    The 5-spd and AOD run the nuetral sensing circuit through the O2 sensor harness. They are pinned differently. I beleive using a 5-spd O2 harness, with an AOD computer can potentially cause some issues.
    #6
  7. 88vertgeetee

    88vertgeetee Member

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    Yes I'm running a t5. Car drove good before the maf conversion then did this misfiring after with the stock engine. Then I did my hci and new fuel pump. So I am looking for an a9l computer now I'll see what that does since its made for a 5 speed. Or if anyone knows how to fix the o2 harnesses to work with the a9p that would be great
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  8. 88vertgeetee

    88vertgeetee Member

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    I ran the diagnostic test and got a bunch of codes. With koer I got 12,21,41,91,31. Koeo I got 31,81,82,83,84,13,36. I have all the egr stuff gone no tab tad solenoids. There's a few codes. I'd love to get my car running good and see the full potential of my hci. All the help would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if I stated it earlier but this started right after I did the maf conversion on the stock engine which did the same thing. Then I did my hci shortly after and still had the erratic driving and the misfires that would come and go.
    #8
  9. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL SN Certified Technician Founding Member

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    Code 12 -Idle Air Bypass motor not controlling idle properly (generally idle too low) - IAB dirty or not working. Clean the electrical contacts with non flammable brake parts cleaner at the same time.

    You guys with idle/stall problems could save a lot of time chasing your tails if you would go through the Surging Idle Checklist. Over 50 different people contributed information to it. The first two posts have all the fixes, and steps through the how to find and fix your idle problems without spending a lot of time and money. I continue to update it as more people post fixes or ask questions. You can post questions to that sticky and have your name and idle problem recognized. The guys with original problems and fixes get their posts added to the main fix. :D:

    It's free, I don't get anything for the use of it except knowing I helped a fellow Mustang enthusiast with his car. At last check, it had more than 125,000 hits, which indicates it does help fix idle problems quickly and inexpensively.



    Code 21 – ECT sensor out of range. Broken or damaged wiring, bad ECT sensor.
    Note that that if the outside air temp is below 50 degrees F that the test for the ECT can be in error. Warm the engine up until you get good hot air from the heater and then dump the codes again.

    The ECT sensor has absolutely nothing to do with the temperature gauge. They are different animals. The ECT sensor is normally located it the passenger side front of the engine in the water feed tubes for the heater.

    The ACT & ECT have the same thermistor, so the table values are the same

    ACT & ECT test data:

    Use Pin 46 on the computer for ground for both ECT & ACT to get most accurate readings.

    Pin 7 on the computer - ECT signal in. at 176 degrees F it should be .80 volts

    Pin 25 on the computer - ACT signal in. at 50 degrees F it should be 3.5 volts. It is a good number if the ACT is mounted in the inlet airbox. If it is mounted in the lower intake manifold, the voltage readings will be lower because of the heat transfer.

    [​IMG]

    Voltages may be measured across the ECT/ACT by probing the connector from the rear. A pair of safety pins may be helpful in doing this. Use care in doing it so that you don't damage the wiring or connector.

    Here's the table :

    50 degrees F = 3.52 v
    68 degrees F = 3.02 v
    86 degrees F = 2.62 v
    104 degrees F = 2.16 v
    122 degrees F = 1.72 v
    140 degrees F = 1.35 v
    158 degrees F = 1.04 v
    176 degrees F = .80 v
    194 degrees F = .61
    212 degrees F = .47 v
    230 degrees F = .36 v
    248 degrees F = .28 v

    Ohms measures at the computer with the computer disconnected, or at the sensor with the sensor disconnected.

    50 degrees F = 58.75 K ohms
    68 degrees F = 37.30 K ohms
    86 degrees F = 27.27 K ohms
    104 degrees F = 16.15 K ohms
    122 degrees F = 10.97 K ohms
    140 degrees F = 7.60 K ohms
    158 degrees F = 5.37 K ohms
    176 degrees F = 3.84 K ohms
    194 degrees F = 2.80 K ohms
    212 degrees F = 2.07 K ohms
    230 degrees F = 1.55 K ohms
    248 degrees F = 1.18 k ohms

    Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

    [​IMG]

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds
    (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

    Code 41 or 91 Three digit code 172 or 176 - O2 sensor indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.

    Revised 06-Sep-2012 remove smog pump crossover tube reference

    Code 41 is a RH side sensor,
    Code 91 is the LH side sensor.

    Code 172 is the RH side sensor
    Code 176 is the LH side sensor

    The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.

    The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
    "When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.

    When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.

    Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.

    Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote

    Testing the O2 sensors 87-93 5.0 Mustangs
    Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear.

    Disconnect the O2 sensor from the harness and use the body side O2 sensor harness as the starting point for testing. Do not measure the resistance of the O2 sensor , you may damage it. Resistance measurements for the O2 sensor harness are made with one meter lead on the O2 sensor harness and the other meter lead on the computer wire or pin for the O2 sensor.

    Backside view of the computer wiring connector:
    [​IMG]

    87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
    Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
    Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
    The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.

    91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
    Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
    Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
    The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a Gray/Lt blue wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a Red/Black wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


    Testing the O2 sensors 94-95 5.0 Mustangs
    Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a red/black wire) and 27 (RH O2 with a gray/lt blue wire). Use pin 32 (gray/red wire) to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


    Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.

    Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
    Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer. Using the Low Ohms range (usually 200 Ohms) you should see less than 1.5 Ohms.

    87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
    Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
    Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
    Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
    From the Dark blue/Lt green wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Dark blue/Lt green wire on the computer pin 43
    From the Dark Green/Pink wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Dark Green/Pink wire on the computer pin 43

    91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
    Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
    Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
    Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
    From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 43
    From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 29

    94-95 5.0 Mustangs:
    Computer pin 29 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
    Computer pin 27 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
    From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 29
    From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 27

    There is a connector between the body harness and the O2 sensor harness. Make sure the connectors are mated together, the contacts and wiring are not damaged and the contacts are clean and not coated with oil.

    The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts

    Make sure you have the proper 3 wire O2 sensors. Only the 4 cylinder cars used a 4 wire sensor, which is not compatible with the V8 wiring harness.

    Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.

    If you get only code 41 and have changed the sensor, look for vacuum leaks. This is especially true if you are having idle problems. The small plastic tubing is very brittle after many years of the heating it receives. Replace the tubing and check the PVC and the hoses connected to it.

    CODE: 31 (KOEO) - EVP circuit below minimum voltage. Vref (5 volt reference voltage supplied by the computer) missing or broken wire or bad connection in circuit. Use a DVM to check for 5 volts on the orange/white wire. If it is missing, look for +5 volts at the orange/white wire on the TPS or MAP sensor located on the firewall near the center of the car. Use the black/white wire for the ground for the DVM.
    With the sensor removed from the EGR and still connected, press the plunger and watch the voltage change on the brown/lt green wire. Pull the passenger side kick panel and measure the voltage at the computer. You will need to remove the plastic cover over the wires and probe them from the backside. A safety pin may prove very useful for this task. Use pin 27, EVR input (brown/lt green wire) and pin 46, signal ground (black/white wire) to measure the voltage. The orange/white wire is Vref and should always be 5 volts -/+ .25 volt. Be sure to measure Vref at the EGR sensor to rule out any broken wires or bad connections.
    Measuring the voltage at the computer helps you spot broken wiring and intermittent connections.
    See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Code 13 - Key on Engine off - ISC did not respond properly (extends to touch throttle then retracts for KOEO) – ISC

    Key on Engine running - Idle Speed Control motor or Air Bypass not controlling idle properly (generally idle too high)

    If your idle is above 725 RPM, the computer will set this code. Normal idle speed is 650-725 RPM. Higher than that means that someone has mechanically set the idle speed by use of the idle speed screw, and has effectively disabled to computer’s ability to control idle speed.


    Code 36 - there is no valid code 36 for 5.0 EFI pushrod Mustangs. You must have miscounted the flashes.


    The remainder of you codes are due to missing emissions equipment.
    Removing the pollution control equipment from a 5.0 Mustang is a bad idea. All you have accomplished is to make the computer mad and spit codes. The pollution control equipment all shuts off at wide open throttle, so the HP losses from it on the car are 2-5 HP. The catalytic converters may soak a few more HP than that. None of the pollution control equipment reduces the HP enough to cost you a race in anything but professional drag strip competition. I seriously doubt that you will be in the final runoff on “Pinks”, so leave the smog equipment in place and make sure it is working correctly.

    Know what does what before removing it. Remove or disable the wrong thing and the computer sets the check engine light and runs in "limp mode". Limp mode means reduced power and fuel economy.

    If you removed the smog pump and still have catalytic converters, they will ultimately clog and fail.

    Here's a book that will get you started with how the Ford electronic engine control or "computer" works.

    Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by James Probst :ISBN 0-8376-0301-3.

    It's about $20-$45 from Borders.com see http://www.amazon.com/ . Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search

    Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free. Only thing is you are limited to keeping the book for two weeks. It is very good, and I found it to be very helpful.

    Remove any of the equipment and you will not pass a full smog check, cannot title the car in an area that does smog checks and have broken several federal laws. Granted that the Feds are short on people to check cars, but it is still Federal law.
    #9
  10. 88vertgeetee

    88vertgeetee Member

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    Is the 24 lb injectors to much for the a9p?
    #10
  11. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL SN Certified Technician Founding Member

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    Not with a MAF that matches the injectors. A custom Dyno tune with a chip burned using the Dyno data helps wring every last bit of power, but isn't a necessity.

    I recommend you fix the items that generated the codes, before doing anything else. Remember to disconnect the battery for 10 minutes anytime you replace a sensor. This forces the computer to relearn the proper settings for the new sensors.
    #11

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