Sounds like it's getting on track. The cam is a budget thing. Not sure it's worthwhile to spring for a custom cam until you know specifics, like how much boost you are going to run and so forth.
Kurt
Kurt
Help With Motor Buying.
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I called and asked, the first price he quoted me was for a custom grind cam. So that's good. I only plan on 6-8lbs. of boost. If I go bigger later I can have another made. He said the lead time is about 3-4 weeks. I'm assuming it could be a little longer. Tomorow he is going to call me with a price on the setup with the Victor Jr's?
$4400 for everything, a built short block with built Edelbrock Victor Jr.'s. Low comp forged pistons, Scat rotating assembly, arp bolts/studs, arp bearings, custom grind cam, etc. Sound good? He also stated that the Victor Jr.'s will add about 25-30HP over the Strikeforce ProComps, sound right? I asked him if ProComp has redesigned or improved the flow of things on there heads recently, he said no. I'm very back and forth on the blower. I understand it's old technology, they get hot as hell when ran hard, etc... I also understand that the nitrous becomes costly to refill, I have to plumb everything, the power won't be there whenever I want it, etc.. My question is should I have the cam ground for the blower or for around 100-150 shot of nitrous. If I go nitrous I will be using a window switch and progressive controller.
I'm not in favor of doing blowers now for minimal gains. If you are going to run 20lbs of boost it's one thing. For 6lbs of boost, I just don't think it's worth the hassle any more. Heads have gotten so much better and affordable you can make good power n/a.
Kurt
Kurt
I just love that snap of power off throttle and of course the sound haha. Maybe I should just have the cam setup for nitrous... decisions.
Can you be more specific as what to ask?
That's not a bad deal they are offering at all. I agree with Kurt, use the blower money and put into the motor. I've run both 302 Blown and stroker 347 and the stroker was a TQ monster. Plus it was a helluva easy thing to tune over a finicky blower.
Thanks for the input. I just talked to Tony (Owner) and he said he'll have Erick at ?Erson? call me tomorow to figure out my custom grind camshaft. He also said he'd be willing to deliver it to PTC, since he comes out to Newnan often. He just wants parts up front ($3200), then the labor ($1200) when he delivers it...
I think for an entry level HCI 302, you are probably looking at a Trick Flow 170cc head on a rebuilt 306 bottom end. That's probably what's going to be in your budget range. I used the Victor Jr. head as an example of a good head that Edelbrock makes. However, I think it would be a little big for your budget.
I like the idea of a blower, but I think in most cases it's more hassle than it's worth. I won't say it's hard to tune, because the right people can tune anything. However there are a number of hassles that come with a supercharger. The most annoying part is the PCV system. If you leave it the way it is, it's always popping the PCV valve out. Some people run a turbocoupe PCV, and that helps a little, but it still pressurizes the crank case which leads to gasket failure. Some people remove the PCV system all together which leads to constant oil changes and engine corrosion. There are others who have designed these incredibly elaborate two way systems with hoses and check valves going everywhere. What you really should do is buy a $600 vacuum pump to clear it all out, which of course discharges oil residue into a can that has to be emptied out regularly. Then there is belt slippage. Belts slip and brake all the damn time. It also takes up a lot of room in the engine compartment making simple mechanical tasks more difficult. It also effects the flow of air through the engine compartment affecting cooling. For a 700+hp setup, I think it would be worth it. Dealing with all that to get 350-400 at the wheels just isn't worth it to me. Back in the 90s when the biggest street head available was like 195cc it was understandable. Now we have big heads and don't need the headache.
Kurt
I like the idea of a blower, but I think in most cases it's more hassle than it's worth. I won't say it's hard to tune, because the right people can tune anything. However there are a number of hassles that come with a supercharger. The most annoying part is the PCV system. If you leave it the way it is, it's always popping the PCV valve out. Some people run a turbocoupe PCV, and that helps a little, but it still pressurizes the crank case which leads to gasket failure. Some people remove the PCV system all together which leads to constant oil changes and engine corrosion. There are others who have designed these incredibly elaborate two way systems with hoses and check valves going everywhere. What you really should do is buy a $600 vacuum pump to clear it all out, which of course discharges oil residue into a can that has to be emptied out regularly. Then there is belt slippage. Belts slip and brake all the damn time. It also takes up a lot of room in the engine compartment making simple mechanical tasks more difficult. It also effects the flow of air through the engine compartment affecting cooling. For a 700+hp setup, I think it would be worth it. Dealing with all that to get 350-400 at the wheels just isn't worth it to me. Back in the 90s when the biggest street head available was like 195cc it was understandable. Now we have big heads and don't need the headache.
Kurt
Too big for my budget or to big for the motor? I'm cool with the $4400...
Yea. I can see your point about using it on a 700+HP setup, but not a 350-400HP. I'll just sell it to put into EFI and Nitrous.
There you go. I like nitrous.
I think it's too big for your budget. The heads and cam will run you $1500ish. A little more for the intake and carb. That leaves you $3k to get the bottom end done and a few other things. It will be tight.
Kurt
I think it's too big for your budget. The heads and cam will run you $1500ish. A little more for the intake and carb. That leaves you $3k to get the bottom end done and a few other things. It will be tight.
Kurt
Tony is charging me $4400 for the long block. I do need a good intake, as for the carb I have a new Eddy 1406 that I plan on putting my 1405 Metering Rods & Springs in. I figure money for nitrous will come with the blower selling. I was wondering how well can this thing run with that big of head. From my understanding it would be good for a high revving motor, but not so well in a 5500RPM max range motor. Should I do 190cc or 170cc, or can the cam grinder really make it run great with those bigger Victor Jr.'s? We're getting there!!
If you're scraping the blower idea make sure you add some compression back into the build. Somewhere around 10:1. If you stick with Vic jr's I'd add as much compression,cam,gears,etc and make a high rpm screamer. Somewhere around 6500rpm would be my limit for durability. Throw some juice at it and with the right set up 500+hp is very possible.
Alright, I was wondering how the compression would relate with nitrous. I know it has to be significantly lower for boosted applications. Sorry if I sound nieve. Nitrous is new to me. I'm just afraid with that big of a head (210CC) and my 3.55 gears I'd have alot of bucking at low rpms. I'm a confident and fairly good driver with a manual. Alright 6500rpm is higher than I was thinking. I figured for durability and reliability sake I would rev to 5-5500rpm, am I leaving alot on the table by not revving higher, with/without those heads? Would the RPM Performer 190CC Heads be better, or best of both worlds?
Alright, so after doing some research. I figured that higher compression will help the motor running N/A as well as with nitrous. Higher compression though will be harder on parts with the spray. As this is my DD and plan to use the juice, fairly often. Should i go low compression, w/ a bigger shot(s) or higher compression with a conservative shot? Also, remember my gearing being 3.55 and those big heads. I need to get this figured out so he can start building, but I want it close to perfect... My understand is that you can't have a strong N/A motor and nitrous. It's either a strong N/A or strong nitrous. Time is killing me ha-ha.
For dedicated nitrous vs N/A "race" engines this is somewhat true but for what you're trying to do build the best N/A engine you can and add a "conservative" shot for the times you want to race. Nitrous on the street is fairly worthless unless you are going to put a lot of electronics on the system controlling the "hit". I'm sure you noticed what traction limitations your car had previous. Add 100+Ft lbs tq on that with the new engine. Now add another 150-250 Ft lbs with a nitrous hit...forgot about traction!! With 3.55 gears you would be best to get a custom hyd roller cam making big mid rpm tq and maxing out around 6000-6300rpm. To give you an idea on the nitrous I've ran 150 dry shot systems for years. My present combo is a mild refreshed stock shortblock with an ecam
() mild ported stock heads and a 150 shot(full exh,boltons etc). With good drag radials it's capable of low to mid 13s and low 12's with the nitrous. A fresh 306 with 190cc heads,good cam,10:1cr,etc should easily run a sec quicker. You don't need 10:1 but you DO NOT want to be below 9:1cr. With alum heads and the proper tuneup that engine will run a long time (if built properly). Remember the stock block is the limiting factor. Some run 500+hp @ high rpm/boost/nitrous whatever for awhile some not so long. Be conservative on your nitrous tune. Don't go crazy on jets,timing etc and you'll have fun(if creative you'll surprise/whip a lot of racers)
@A5literMan 1.) As far as electronics for the nitrous, what are you thinking? I was planning on a window switch and WOT switch, but I have been reading on the progressive controllers and cannot see a reason not to use one. At least that would give me a chance with traction and I imagine be easier on the motor.
As for your cam suggestion, thank you. 2.) Is this (hydr. roller, big mid rpm tq, max at 6k-6300rpm) something I should mention to the cam grinder, or am I just over-thinking everything and need to let him do his job? He is going to be calling me tomorow, to talk about my idea for the cam.
Awesome, this is sounding better and better. 3.) Do you have an idea about the 210cc(victor jr.) head over the 190cc(performer rpm)? 4.) Also do you have a suggestion on a nitrous kit? 5.) I'd like to know your reasoning for dry over a wet kit?
As for your cam suggestion, thank you. 2.) Is this (hydr. roller, big mid rpm tq, max at 6k-6300rpm) something I should mention to the cam grinder, or am I just over-thinking everything and need to let him do his job? He is going to be calling me tomorow, to talk about my idea for the cam.
Awesome, this is sounding better and better. 3.) Do you have an idea about the 210cc(victor jr.) head over the 190cc(performer rpm)? 4.) Also do you have a suggestion on a nitrous kit? 5.) I'd like to know your reasoning for dry over a wet kit?
#1. Progressive controller is def the way to go. Nitrous Solutions is who I would recommend. I've read a lot about them but have not used their product. Any of the suppliers are pretty good. I've run NOS and Zex kits before. You'll need a wet kit because of the carb. I've only ran dry kits on my EFI but my friends are all carbed. One is running a 250 shot. Has a whole seperate fuel system for it. You won't have to get that complicated though. He is running a 540 bbc into the low 9s on drag radials(heavy ass chevelle). With a progressive kit made by nos. The full shot is in by 2 sec. I would run all the stuff you mentioned.
#2. Just talk to the cam grinder and tell him everything about your build from heads,exhaust,use,manners you are looking for,etc. He will/should ask you all the pertinent questions and get you set up. The eddy Vic jr's are a great head. Gives you plenty to work with and you'll never out grow them(unless you go really extreme later on ie 400+ cu inch complete race build). The rpm's are a good head also and may be a better recommendation for now but will be limited if you ever change the engine ie "bigger and badder". You might want to consider adding more rear gear. At least 3.73 and 4.10's would be better. It all depends on your ultimate goals. Making the quickest car you can(which does have some negative effects on street manners,etc) or having a nice manageable car with good street manners and maybe not quite as quick. If you don't think you'll ever expand on this build(ie another engine someday) go with a 180-200cc head. If you might go bigger/badder/faster then buy 200+cc head. If cam'd correctly/tuned/geared the big heads won't be noticeably soft down low but still capable of screaming through the upper rpms. I personally really like the new TFS 205 cc heads. Top of the line component. Afr would be 2nd and eddy products 3rd. They all are nice though and capable of making big steam.
#2. Just talk to the cam grinder and tell him everything about your build from heads,exhaust,use,manners you are looking for,etc. He will/should ask you all the pertinent questions and get you set up. The eddy Vic jr's are a great head. Gives you plenty to work with and you'll never out grow them(unless you go really extreme later on ie 400+ cu inch complete race build). The rpm's are a good head also and may be a better recommendation for now but will be limited if you ever change the engine ie "bigger and badder". You might want to consider adding more rear gear. At least 3.73 and 4.10's would be better. It all depends on your ultimate goals. Making the quickest car you can(which does have some negative effects on street manners,etc) or having a nice manageable car with good street manners and maybe not quite as quick. If you don't think you'll ever expand on this build(ie another engine someday) go with a 180-200cc head. If you might go bigger/badder/faster then buy 200+cc head. If cam'd correctly/tuned/geared the big heads won't be noticeably soft down low but still capable of screaming through the upper rpms. I personally really like the new TFS 205 cc heads. Top of the line component. Afr would be 2nd and eddy products 3rd. They all are nice though and capable of making big steam.
@A5literMan Awesome thanks for the suggestions and knowledge. Do you have a progressive controller on your setup? I think I'll stick with the Victor Jr.'s, I forsee boost in my future. What size rear end gears are you running? I really don't drive on the interstate often, but would like to keep that option. I visit family in FL, would love to make it to Mustang Week, and go to bagged shows every once in a while.
Most of your problems can be worked out with the cam grind. I wouldn't worry too much about the nitrous setup yet. Just get it running first. I don't know too many people running a progressive setup on a small shot. That depends on how big of a jet you want to run and how much tire you have.
Kurt
Kurt
