How To Get 500+ HP Out Of 4.6?

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by mustangman9812, Jul 23, 2006.


  1. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    First The Donald...I mean the98mustang wants a Mustang that makes over 550 RWHP on a P-1SC, then jalapeño pepper wants to see one that makes 600 RWHP. What's next, you want to see a Honda Civic that makes 1000 RWHP on a C-1? BTW, if you actually read my posts I never claimed anything about a specific power level on a 2V 4.6. Horsepower is horsepower, and a 383" LT4 motor blown by a P-1SC will consume much more air than any similarly modded 281" 2V motor and that's the point that eluded a few here. HP is about the mass of fuel/air that enter the motor, not pressure potential (PSI). The The P-1SC is one of Pro Charger's "beginner" super chargers and it still has a ton of potential when in the hands of a competent builder and tuner.

    Voretch's are popular in the Mustang community because that's what they are familiar and comfortable with, just like Kenne Bell. Mustang enthusiasts have proven to show a trend of sticking to what they are familiar with and not being willing to try out new and possibly even better products. I have met so many ex-Vortech converted to Pro Charger guys at the track it's made for some good stories over the years.

    But then that's the beautiful thing about us gearheads and the car world isn't it?....to each his own flavor.:nice:
    #41
  2. Rickey_Bobby

    Rickey_Bobby New Member

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    That would be 1000FWHP, unless he is backing up...


    Like Paying crazy prices for VT/DSS blocks/not swapping 5.4L's when its cheap and easy to do on your own:D

    Still go with Turbo!
    #42
  3. jivepepper

    jivepepper Founding Member

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    Make fun of my user name what an infant.:lol:
    The Strim is a better entry level SC than the P1SC period! There as been over 600 rwhp made on the 2V with the strim, but I have yet to see a P1SC even go past 550. Trust me hundreds have tried not going to happen. You are on a 4.6l 2v forum and thats what makes the comparison necessary. No one cares what you might have did with a 383.
    #43
  4. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    Mustangman9812, I recommend you call this guy - http://www.superchargers4less.com/

    He is very knowledgeable to the forced induction world and knows alot about each of the choices out there and has helped me a bunch over the years. He is a dealer of all the various manufacturers, so no matter what "brand" :D you end up choosing, he will have it.

    Just for kicks, here is an interesting usable torque graph. HR magazine compiled this when they did the "Battle of the Boost" a while back.

    [​IMG]
    #44
  5. stangman

    stangman Well-Known Member

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    if you look in my garage it will list my mods. i'm making roughly 508 at the flywheel (442 at the tires) with a Novi 2k :) it was pretty easy, but it's all in the tune :nice:

    *points to sig*
    #45
  6. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    It appears (according to your garage) as if you are using the stock bottom end. That is impressive and I am seeing more and more stock bottom ends holding 450 RWHP or more. How long have you been making the 442 to the tire on the stock bottom end?
    #46
  7. stangman

    stangman Well-Known Member

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    over a year now & i ain't easy on it either

    [​IMG]

    :)
    #47
  8. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    Is that air I see under the front tires.:D

    Nice pic. I try to tell my customers and other 4.6 2V guys that the stock bottom end will handle a hell of a lot more than they realize...it just has to have a dead nuts tune.

    What kind of times does she run? BTW, was that 442 SAE corrected?
    #48
  9. GodAmGT00

    GodAmGT00 New Member

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    I agree w/ almost everything you're saying, but felt it necessary to add this.. In the Mustang world, the only thing I know people to steer towards, was the proven and reliable methods of making their car worthwhile, whether it be NA or FI... Whether they take the Supercharger route, or Turbo (less popular), or even N20, it's known that Mustang guys stick together because the recipe for success is very clear..

    -Find a reputable company
    -Find some folks who, between the whole of them, have money to burn, experience to fix/modify, and crazy enough to test drive it..

    Personally, I'd rather have a Centrifugal S/cer for a bunch of reasons.. Reliability, adaptability, easy of install, Intercooling, more predictable; are just some of the reasons.. That's IF I went the S/Cer route..

    Turbos are great, but the footprint is ridiculous, at least under our hoods... Pretty sure you'd have to tuck them both (if you went w/ 2) in the fenders, and just ran I/C piping along the front..



    JT
    #49
  10. stangman

    stangman Well-Known Member

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    it is :D & that's with the chrome 17x9's & 275/40-17 rubber hanging there too :)

    i have no idea if the numbers are corrected or uncorrected. as far as times it went 12.6 @ 103 :D i went on street tires & let out at around 3/4 track due to running out of gear :notnice: i'll go back on the 28" slicks that are in the pic & see what it does :)
    #50
  11. mustangman9812

    mustangman9812 Active Member

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    This Tread has gone crazy LOL LOL
    #51
  12. jivepepper

    jivepepper Founding Member

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    It was hardly worth installing a vortech strim? I picked a 120rwhp from the base kit. It has 42k on it now has never leaked and runs like a champ. The strim for the 4.6l is a straight discharge.

    With that said I think Procharger makes a great Sc, I'm just not impressed with the P1SC. I would love a F1 from Procharger. Here again is a link to a 620+ rwhp 2v without nitrous running a strim. If I was to upgrade to a bigger centrifuge SC it would be the Novi 2000.

    http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18244&highlight=vortech


    Vortech S-trm is over 70% efficient with the straight discharge, and thats what the 4.6 uses . All Sc installs need a custom chip to run their best. On my mail order tune mine also felt sluggish but after the tune it was a different car.

    http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/units/
    #52
  13. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    You don't look at from the point of view of how much power you gained on the dyno, you measure a supercharger's capacity to perform by how much of a percentage you gained over your baseline power. It looks like you gained roughly 60-65%. That is not bad, but when compared to the 75-80% gain you could have received from a P-1SC you have to wonder.

    The "straight" discharge is referred to as a 90 degree outlet. That is, it is 90° to the gas flow exit direction from the tip of the impellar. This significantly reduces the efficiency of a centrifugal supercharger. Vortech has admitted they know this yet they still insist on only offering a 90° or curved discharge outlet. I don't know the exact ATI discharge outlet angle, but it is much greater than all the other competitors and lends itself to be much more efficent, the most efficient in fact.

    Vortech conveniently uses the SAE J1723 alone as the way they calculate their adiabatic eficiency ratings. This is strongly deceptive and Vortech knows this. Unfortunately most prospective supercharger customers are not educated enough on the subject to know better. Using the SAE J1723 alone does not factor in the impact of engine bay heat soak, engine dynamics, and intercooling deficiencies caused by intercooler type and supercharger location in relation to the intercooler. ATI not only uses the SAE J1723 calculations, but also factors all of this other reality into their adiabatic efficiency ratings and it represents a MUCH more realistic model.

    I know the engine shop manager (Ben) over at Roush Racing. I met him after I delivered one of my old race cars that he bought. They did some independent testing of all the popular centrifugal superchargers. While I was there, he showed me the resultant compressor maps they had obtained from their testing. These maps show the collected multivariate data, and includes the pressure versus flow curves obtained at a fixed operating speed. These maps also show what is called iso-efficiency contours (eficiency islands). Needless to say, every single ATI unit they tested blew away (no pun intended :p ) all the competitors including Vortech.

    Vortech is continually inproving their technology and I think they are making headway, but they still have a lot to learn. ATI has a TON more money supporting the Pro Charger R&D, and that is the fundamental reason why ATI has always had the edge.
    #53
  14. 04YELLOWGT

    04YELLOWGT Active Member

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    One thing you have to remember is that the PS1C is also intercooled. Of course a intercooled supercharger is going to make more power than a non-intercooled. The PS1C makes good power but I know three guys that switched from Procharger to vortech because they saw guys running 600+ rwhp with the S trim and they had a hell of a time hitting 500.
    #54
  15. Chris00GT

    Chris00GT Founding Member

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    I would think Vortech has more money in R&D since they own Paxton and can draw from them also.

    As somebody who worked at a Mustang performance shop for over 6 years and has seen all the blowers on our dyno and installed many of them, you can't compair a S-trim to a P1-SC as equals. The Prochargers are STILL prone to oil seal failure (this past Thursday we had an new F1-R just back from Procharger fail on the dyno after 5 pulls). The flat sheet of aluminum that Prochargers use on 4.6 Mustangs sucks. You can shake the blower back and forth. Grab a Paxton or a vortech blower...no give. It may not seem like a big deal, but when you pulley down and run tight belts, a blower braket that gives makes it a pain when you toss belts all the time. The throttle body style bypass on a procharger leak boost. The Vortech and paxton platic bypass aren't the greatest, but atleast they seal while under boost. Finnaly you have the effiency of the blowers. The P1's strait up impellor design builds boost faster than the S trim, but it is very ineffecent and produces alot of heat when pushed hard (the reason they need an intercooler). The Procharger stait up impellor design is allso the reason you don't see many P1-SC's over 500rwhp. Now ProCharger does have the P1-SC-2 that has a simular blower impellor design as the Vortech S trim and what's on the D1. I've seen very good results from this blower. The only down side is most people don't know about this option, and the one's I know of, one totally failed when pushed close to max blower speed and 2 other ones also had leaking seals. Heck I was a dealer for Procharger, Paxton and Vortech....look what's on my car ;)
    #55
  16. jivepepper

    jivepepper Founding Member

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    Wonder? I don't have to wonder It comes with an intercooler, after I added my DIY IC from 450 dollars worth of ic compents from ebay. I picked up 40 more hp.

    When the all models are equal the strim kicks the **** out of the P1SC. Show me a 600 rwhp 4.6 2v mod engine with a p1sc.
    #56
  17. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    Show me proof of one single self contained Pro Charger head unit that has had a real oil leak. And don't waste my time posting a link to a thread or saying that "you heard from a couple of guys." Show me proof. I would also like to see this F-1 unit that you claim was destroyed on the dyno. 99% percent of the time that a new compressor fails on the dyno of all places, it installed incorrectly or severely overdriven. What size pulley did it have? What size crank pulley? Was it a COG drive?

    In the 9 years that I have been in the race car business, I have installed my share of superchargers. I have not ever had one single SC Pro Charger leak on me....not one. And as you know, being in the "business" you know lot's people. And all the competent shops that I know and regularly talk to (which is a bunch) have also never had one single SC Pro Charger leak.

    These little rumors get started for two major reasons. First of all what most people do not realize is that the compressor housing seal is a "wet" seal much like a rear main seal. It will be extrenally wet to the touch just like a rear main seal. That is the way they purposely designed. A lot of people and techs will touch the head unit or set it down on a shop towel and see a little oil and just blindly assume that it is leaking.

    Then I have even seen some so called techs set the head unit on their bench upside down and when they flip it over to go and install it, of course it is going to leak. Any self contained supercharger will, Paxton, Kenne Bell, Pro Charger.
    #57
  18. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

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    You cannot compare a P-1SC to a S-Trim. They are two different animals. And of course the ATI stuff is all intercooled. That is the only way. People that install superchargers on a car without a intercooler are simply playing with fire....literally.
    #58
  19. Bad Karma

    Bad Karma New Member

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    350 shot....
    #59
  20. jivepepper

    jivepepper Founding Member

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    I have a friend that I go to the track with, that has sent his procharger back twice in less than 10,000 miles.
    #60

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