Discussion in '1965 - 1973 Classic Mustangs -General/Talk-' started by 67 GTA, Apr 12, 2006.
Really, if you're an illegal, your not going to sign up for amnesty and pay $50,000 back taxes.
I think it is time to take the illegals we have now and as punishment pay them to build a wall along the border. They would make enough money for it to be worth their while so they benefit from this slightly by making some money to go home and start a decent life, or even give them the start to becoming a legal citizen down the road. Then they will need to be sent back, it is the law we cannot come across as weak, this would kill two birds with one stone. It will give them employment for a time and help us out with the illegal immigration problem.
Government never fixes anything...it just adds layers of bureaucracy that spends our money as taxes [or takes it for themselves].
Don't hire illegals. Period. Very simple. EVERYONE is capable of doing this. Penalize those who do. It is not hard to figure out. No $$ => very few illegals [except for those who are REALLY ILLEGAL; and there is a lot of that as well, don't kid yourselves].
I like the idea of a wall across the border built by illegals...but that would be viewed as a human rights issue by the left, I am sure. Our constititution is ONLY FOR CITIZENS! It burns me that people want to say it applies to anyone that can get themselves within our geographic borders. Total foolishness.
Low paying jobs: gee, slash the welfare programs by 80%. Might just have a labor pool after all.
Sad for me [also a veteran of the US armed forces] to say, but this country is in a downward spiral, like most of western society. Europe is farther along that road...just watch what is happening over there. Truly sad...
Warning rant in progress.
You are correct it is so true. I have been saying it for the last 5-6 years that we will end up like Europe if we don't change things around a little bit. Our nation is becoming soft, which can be a good thing, I am not saying to take from the poor and give to the rich. However if we continue to think as what the extreme left likes to call "progressive" as we are going then the world will be laughing at us in no time. That is how the left gets its votes, they appeal to the unwanted and disliked, usually wanting to build our society on the backbone of the weak or minority as opposed to the majority. Europe is doing that, and we are starting now too. We are so concerned about being politically correct that our nation is turning into a bunch of crybabies. I am saddened to see this happen, but will do my part to protect it as well.
First off, I'm amazed that this thread has been allowed to go on this long. It has nothing to do with Mustangs and doesn't belong here. It looks like there are a few closet racists here who just outed themselves. There must be some redneck forum out there where this belongs.
I agree that we need immigration reform, but the answer will be alot more complicated than amnesty or deportation. I'm sure many here had ancestors who came here illegaly. Anyone here speak Cherokee, Navajo or some other Native American language? No? Most likely your ancestors were some of the first illegal immigrants to come here. So why did they come here? To rape this land and send their "riches" back to the old country? No. Moving here was a chance at a new beginning and a hope for a better life. Most of the people who come here "illegally" now come for the same reason. Yeah, there are undocumented immigrants who take advantage of public assistance, but I'm sure there are a lot more able-bodied US citizens who do the same. My parents came here from Mexico in 1955, legally, but it was alot easier then. I was born here. I'm proud to be an American, and I'm proud of my Mexican ancestry. Throughout my life, I've known dozens of people who came from Mexico "illegally." A lot of them have been family and some were friends fom back home. Some had a harder time than others getting employment. None of them have EVER relied on public assistance. Family or freinds already here helped them out until they were able to go out on their own. Most have managed to legalize their status here. They've all gotten jobs and lived responsible productive lives. They do pay taxes just as you and I do. Some do send money back to Mexico to help out family. Wouldn't you do the same for family? They still need to survive while living here, so they don't send all their money out of the Country. Most immigrants don't come here to rape this country and then go back home. They want to live the dream we live. Most countries don't offer their citizens the rights that we take for granted. In many countries it's near impossible to own land, a home or even a car. Free Speach? Forget about it.
So what's happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore; send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door"? Should we replace the lamp on the Statue of Liberty with a "Stop" or "Do Not Enter" sign? It seems to me, the same people who made this country great (the immigrants) are the ones we're trying to blame for our problems now. It's true that "our nation is turning into a bunch of crybabies." A lot of that is visible right here in this thread.
This is the talk section, and this thread is fine so long as people don't go to far. Through arguing one can understand unless they go about bashing everyone senselessly. No need to start flaming people for their opinions.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
For myself, the term "closet racist" does NOT apply. First, I have no problem making any of my beliefs known - my problem has always one of keeping my beliefs to myself. My theoretical closet would include a ten-megawatt audio/video broadcasting system, blaring my personal ideology 24/7/365. Second; I simply cannot afford to be racist; I'd be irritating waaaaayyy too many of my relatives - you name a country, I'll name a relative. Trust me. Further, the greatest percentage of my "pedigree" is Northern "Black" Irish; Hispanics have a long way to go to come close to the degree of hatred my great-grandparents endured; and they were first-generation-born US citizens.
Am I a redneck? Well, let's see... I (by choice) have a blue-collar job in a service industry. My particualr position is somewhat technical, requiring a certain amount of continuing education and pays commensurately (very well, actually); but the simple fact is, "You want it, I deliver it. You break it, I fix it".
I work in a Union Shop; but am (again, by choice) not a member of the Union, because I believe my work ethic and personal/professional intelligence will, in the end, serve me better than the ability to "File a Grievance" every time some manager breaks wind in my presence. I have a kid in the United States Army, guns, dogs, horses, and a Boy Scout Troop (it's the very same Troop in which I was a Scout). My house is littered with crucifixes and American flags; if you are offended by either, you are cordially invited to get out.
According to my mother-in-law, I am indeed a redneck; but, then again, she also maintains her unshakeable faith that Clinton couldn't possibly have been "dipping cigars" (or other personal appendages) with that intern.
Do I believe all Mexicans are lazy? Nope. In fact, my nephew (an Air Force Captain and part of the second US-born generation of his paternal line) is anything but lazy; but his father (my sister's first ex-husband) sure is! Almost as lazy as her second ex-husband - who is the stereotypical white boy redneck, complete with the '79 TransAm (seriously, it's silver with, I believe, blue 'Bird decals) on blocks in his 70-year-old mother's carport and bathtub full of baitfish in the back yard!
Yep, there are many jobs performed by Hispanics which most white boys won't do. Personally, I'm fond of the old WPA; wherein "disadvantaged" people of any race go out and do those kinds of jobs in order to receive their financial assistance. Solves two problems at once - the work gets done; and my Social Security taxes aren't going towards weight-loss programs for the guys who spend their days getting fat while watching Jerry Springer in between trips to the Welfare Office. Hey, I did that kind of work until I could get a good job!
It was asked if I had ever been in "the Projects"; and oh, yes I have! Been in more than a few HUD projects - lots of those folks have much nicer furniture than mine. And, I've been advised by some of those residents that I "have to do whatever they want, because they're minorities and we stole their country so I owe them". As politely as I could, I took one guy's full-race Dell XPS online (I was working on his 7 Meg DSL circuit) and Google'd "Gadsden Purchase". He wasn't impressed.
Sorry if it seems as though I'm only bringing out "the bad stuff"; but the US/ Mexico border is only 5 miles West of me as I sit here in my dining room. (Yes, West, if you look at SW Arizona on a map; you'll see that Mexico is both due South and Due West of Yuma) I was born here; have lived all my life (save seven years in Tucson during/after college) with the daily racial prejudices and slurs thrown at me! (Unless you don't consider "You need to speak Spanish if you wanna be something, white boy" a prejudice or slur)
I could take my own advice and just "get out"; but, well, I was born here. In the overwhelming majority of cases, I was here long before those people who are happily telling me I don't belong. Perhaps somebody could explain why they are right and I'm wrong?
I'm sorry that your geographic location and personal experiences have made you biased. I understand that. I can certainly see both sides of the coin. As with everything in life, you have to take the good with the bad - unfortunately, you've maybe been exposed to more bad than good, regarding this subject.
96 DOHC - We are on the same page, I believe. Just a note though: we have been discussing this peacefuly - without intentionally insulting eachother. Sometimes OT threads like this pop up, but as long as it stays civil, I don't think it's such a bad thing.
I agree this is a good thread, I like to hear other people's point of view.
In short this is the land of opportunity 96 DOHC, it's not like America is closed. You have to sieze that opportunity though, my parents did, they came here while their countrymen and family were being murdered by Muslims (the fact that my dad and grandpa were in the military didn't help either). They had to leave everything didn't have a penny. Worked two jobs, slept 3 hours, and took 17 credit hours and graduated top of their class. Now they bring in around 300K a year and contribute to our fine nation. They busted their asses to become citizens, they became legal citizens by following the processes laid out for everyone. If they can get where they are anyone can which is why I have no sympathy for their situation. That is the beauty of this nation, the American Dream is very well possible if you are willing to work for it. Again they siezed the opportunity, it wasn't given to them. We are not here to give handouts, they have to earn it like everyone else.
Either way they aren't citizens they have no rights here, which bothers me even more that they are protesting a nation they aren't even a part of.
Guess I'll throw my two cents in here.
Over the years I have met several mexicans here illegaly. When Barks Construction was up and operating several years ago they built churches all through Texas and California. The labor was done by mostly illegal immigrants from what I have been told. If you meet and converse with these folks they are here trying to better their life. I am sure not all of them but if you meet a guy swinging a hammer or shoveling horse hockey chances are he is not trying to leach off of the system. In all racial groups in america you will find leachers and workers and probably some that fall inbetween. Stereotyping is not effective. When a guy is willing to risk life and limb to better his life and his families lives you have to give them some credit. The fact that the naturalization process is long and complicated doesn't help. Perhaps streamlining the legal process of immigration would help. I don't know.
I met one of my uncles employees many years ago. His name was Nata (not sure on spelling). He started as an illegal working construction for my grandfather and my uncle. He stuck with them and worked his butt off. He swam the river and risked his life to provide a better life for his MASSIVE family. I am not talking about just children. He is the main bread winner for a few generations. Family is more important to their culture than most Americans will understand. He worked here for 15-20 years before he was able to finally become a legal resident. Now he has his family over here and owns a successful business in SoCal dealing in horses and mules. A business which my uncle helped him get started. Nata represents the hard working, family oriented ideals that this country was founded on. If someone is in this country makeing a valid contribution to society, what is the problem? Why would we not want good hard working citizens?
Most folks would be surprised to find out how many of your military is made up of non-citizens. These folks are here legally but are not citizens. They are fighting for your freedoms when they aren't even citizens themselves. How much beleif in the American ideal does it take to put yourself at risk for a country you aren't a citizen of?
As many have said this problem is not cut and dried. Don't jump to a quick fix. There isn't one. Quick fixes is what made the system as messed up as it is now.
As far as American's not doing these jobs, I'm sure there are plenty of Amercians out there wanting the work these illegal immigrants do. But, most americans expect to much. Look at GM. Look at the benefits these employees get. Any one see the news stories about the daycare, aerobic classes, and whatever dumb crap the unions have forced that company into? Americans need to have realistic expectations from their employers. To many people are out for only themselves and don't care about the overall picture. If a company has to spend all it's income trying to take care of it's employees, how are they going to grow? Pride in your work is a foreign concept to many folks now days. So when someone tries to get a job but expects $35,000 a year with full benefits and lots of time off, how can Amercan companies progress. They find someone more willing to work that's how. Americans have to keep not only their interests in mind but also those of their employers.
That was more than two cents. More like $1.50 but there it is.
SSG Barks out...
Just because your parents did so well, doesn't mean it was easy - ask them.
Many illegals don't have the education or even the foresight to plan for the education to be able to do as well as your parents did. There are different classes of worker in all countries - many of these people are laborers, and that's all they want or need to be - which is fine.
Yes, your parents did well, but the American Dream to other people could easily include having a full stomach when they go to bed and having money to bring their kids to the doctor. If $300k is the American Dream - I'm certainly a long way away.
ssg_barks - I agree - many people haven't even met an illegal, or if they have, they don't even know it.
Let's trade Americans who are raping the welfare system for Mexicans wanting to work for their money. The Mexicans can even have their housing when we send these lazy Americans off to Mexico.
Exactly. What's worse..someone who has been offered opportunity and chooses to rape the system and be lazy - or someone who wants to work?
It was very hard, that is what I was trying to illustrate. I am not saying that all the Mexicans are bad but we are not getting the cream of the crop either. They very well do have the foresight to understand the role education plays in life. I don't know if you have seen or learned about the educational system they have, but it is a very rigorous system, and allows for success if they are willing to work for it. Look at statistics and you will see what I mean, the stuff that I explained earlier that classifies me as a "closet racist" are true, the majority end up getting in over their heads, and leads to increased crime and drugs. It is a problem we don't need any more of I can assure you of that (when I cruise down state street and some gang bangin homie has to start cussing at me cause I am on his turf, OH GOD DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED!! HE CAN TAKE HIS USELESS WANNABE INTIMIDATING ASS OUT OF OUR COUNTRY). The standards we have set are very well fair, everyone else can meet them so can they. Like I said one of those standards is to at the very least speak our language, if they aren't willing to even do that then they don't care enough to be here, they just want a handout. If they find having 20 kids and being in the lowest income bracket, and then expecting handouts for it more important to them, (and that won't gain them admittance) sorry not our problem. Have some self control, it's called having perspective don't make mistakes and expect others to pay for them doesn't work that way, we aren't socialists. Sorry this isn't Mexico we aren't here to meet their needs, they can come to this country and become PROUD AMERICANS!
As for the American Dream being 300K,(your average American family doesn't make close that) it was not, that was not my point, what I was stating is the opportunity. Someone can come here and make a great life here in all aspects it doesn't have to be just money. I was merely pointing out that the potential is there, and everybody has money as a big factor. If those Mexicans don't want to make money tell me why they are here? Is it because California has nicer palm trees than Mexico?
How do you know that we aren't getting the creme of the crop? I sounds like you've passed judgement already. Stereotyping doesn't help the issue either - perhaps you too have had experiences that make you feel the way you do. The experiences that I have had are much more positive, however I have seen some real gang-banging wannabees too (which you might be surprised to find out that they were born right here inthe good ole US). You are also making a lot of assumptions - not creme of the crop (by whos standards?), the majority end up getting in over their heads, leading to crime and drugs??(how do you know this?)
You want some other factors, other than money? Have you ever been to Mexico? - not the tourist traps on the beach, REAL Mexico? Central Mexico is practically lawless. My wifes cousin was murdered by her husband and the police aren't even going to look for him, unless a private party pays them a little extra money. A lot of Mexico is very poor - many people who come here to work send money back to their very poor families.
Regardless - I respect your opinion, you can think whatever you like. I'm going to stop the debate here, as I have stated my opinion (a few times). I'll end with - remember how this country was born. Think about humanity as a whole, not 100% nationality (Other countries and PRIOR superpowers went the 100% nationality direction...prior superpowers..prior.
I'm done - take care, back to OT discussion for me.
I am not making this up, most of the places that are prone to crime are areas with low income and tend to be minorities. I am not saying white people, and black people are angels they commit these crimes too, but the Latino groups do just as much if not more, it is a proven statistic.
Stereotypes exist for a reason they are true. That is a harsh judgement because I don't let stereotypes condemn people that would make me a racist, everyone is an individual in my eyes. However the stereotypes do exist and it does lead to some preconceived notions which I am sorry to say hinder progress for the true hardworking individuals. What I mean by not creme of the crop is do you see any of the illegals coming here with degrees or an education? No, the legal ones do and they contribute to our society.
I have been to ****hole Mexico, Rosarito was one of the places we have visited, we spent a night there and ended up leaving the very next day, which reinforced the fact that they have problems we don't need them brought here. They can legally apply for citizenship and become a part of our nation. It is a simple law everyone else follows it, so can they. My parents have had many family members murdered, because we aren't islamic, believe me their situation was a lot worse because they were in the military when islam didn't rule, so they were conceived as a threat. They had to be smuggled out by drug dealers because everyone was looking for them. It is a lot worse in Iran than it is in Mexico believe me. They still turned out fine, and became legal citizens first. Again there are no handouts in life they need to work for it like everybody else. Just because they are south of the border doesn't make it okay.
I really don't want you to get me wrong. I am open minded and love to hear everyone's point of view, I enjoy having someone on here that is passionate about their viewpoint and completely respect it. By arguing with you I am learning a lot, and I hope you are learning a lot as well. This won't get out of hand so long as you don't take anything I say the wrong way, because I still want to hear what you have to say. When this is done and said we are all still stang lovers and would love to help each other out. So please don't be offended.
Two things: Appealing to emotions typically means your point is lacking. No issue is ever black and white but no one can come onto this board and say that the current situation is one that is acceptable.
Trying to say that while billy bob in his trailer paying for liquor or laquandisha in her project home is supporting 5 crack babies, juan is working his butt off is irrelevant. He is here "ILLEGALLY" which some people seem to overlook. In America, if I do something illegally consequences are handed via the law, I am NOT given a pat on the back for having a disadvantaged situation.
Seal the boards, kick the illegals out, reform the citizenship process and gut welfare.
I honestly wonder what would happen if the conservative minded people left (a la atlas shrugged) ?
What part of ILLEGAL are you guys having a problem with?
Wouldn't it be simple to snap your fingers and make 11 million illegals disappear? I agree, if anyone is here illegally, they should be removed. If someone was correctly ENFORCING the laws, this wouldn't have grown into such a problem.
What I am saying is that, with the current situation, it will be almost impossible to enforce the laws. If you think for a second that the government is going to round up millions of people, put them in wagons and tote them off, your insane. 1 - billions of dollars to even locate people. 2 - Imagine the human rights outrage, and how much it would look like the holocaust. 3 - Practically impossible to do.
There needs to be a solution, but it's going to involve letting the rules slide. THAT is pretty much the issue right now. No one wants to be the ones to "weaken" America by letting these laws stay (decades here) broken, but everyone knows they aren't going to be able to enforce them.
Everyone knows the laws have been are are being broken(for DECADES), everyone knows it sucks, most people realize that there is nothing (within reason) than can be done to 100% reverse the situation. So don't make it sound easier than it is. 1 in 3 AMERICANS in California are Hispanic.
Man - I HAD to get drug back into this thing
Me No Sign!!