I'm embarrassed

Discussion in '2005 - 2014 S-197 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by oh9mustang, Aug 19, 2009.


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  1. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    I would love to catch this guy in either a straight line or in the corners and slap his Mustang around in my "4-door POS."

    Yep, the STi is a "Fast and the Furious ricer." Let's break it down, just to be sure that the STi really is rice. Based on MY 2005 STi.

    Hood Scoop
    STi- Functional

    Mustang- Not functional, styling only

    Spoiler
    STi- Functional. It provides 90 lbs of downforce (2005) at 90 mph

    Mustang- Non-functional. Styling aesthetics only, and a bit of interrupted airflow to produce unnecessary drag.

    Suspension
    STi- INDEPENDENT REAR SUSPENSION ,staggered shock setup, thicker swaybars, nothing in common with a WRX suspension. Don't forget that I can adjust the AWD setup from 50% of the power evenly displayed between the front/rear to a 35/65 FWD/RWD balance.

    Mustang- LIVE AXLE, nothing special about a standard Mustang suspension

    Brakes
    STi- Brembo. 14 inch rotors up front, 12 inch rotors in the rear, 4-piston calipers up front, 2-piston in the rear

    Mustang- What brakes?

    Transmission
    STi- 3.91 gears, 6 speed close-ratio

    Mustang- Ancient 5 speed transmission (except SVT), 3.31 gears standard (?)

    Now, here's where everybody gets upset.

    My STi is better than your Mustang, period. Call me arrogant, but facts are facts.

    BUT, WAIT! The Mustang trumps the STi with LESS. Despite the clear superiority of the STi as a full-on performance machine, despite having just as much power and torque as the Mustang, plus a lighter curb weight, it lacks not only the feeling of a domestic V8 Muscle Car, but also the sound.

    Despite everything the STi has, it doesn't have what matters most, and that is why I am looking for a Mustang.

    And FWIW, "rice" doesn't equate the manufacturer or appearance of a car. It equates a car having non-functional appearance items. What's that mean? It seems that your Mustang is more "rice" than my mailbox that mated with a shopping cart.

    Have a good day, and see ya in the rearview.
    #61
  2. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    The new Impreza is hideous. Not even Subaru fans like it.
    #62
  3. Steel Horse

    Steel Horse Member

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    I was warming up to call you out on shopping for a Mustang when the STi is the better numbers car. Like I said in an earlier post it isn't always about the performance numbers. Glad you see it that way too.
    #63
  4. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've ever been called out, and it surely would not be a last. ;)

    No, it's not always about the numbers. So the Mustang isn't as "hardcore" off the showroom floor, but Ford DOES make it possible to build one Hell of a good performance car. Yeah, the Mustang's rear axle is unsophisticated, but there are still A LOT of vehicles using live axles, and who in their right mind is hanging the rear-end in bumpy corners? My STi has an IRS and lemme tell ya, just because it's an IRS doesn't mean it's a picnic in bumpy corners.

    I already have my 2010 (or whatever...) Mustang picked out.

    GT Deluxe (Kona Blue with white stripe)
    Trak Pak
    5-Speed
    3.73 Axle
    Roush (or Ford) Supercharger
    Side Window Louvers

    The car will be warranted, and a great performer. Then as for the aftermarket:

    Exhaust
    Wheels
    #64
  5. GreyDiesel

    GreyDiesel New Member

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    I love my solid rear axle.

    The Mustang gets a lot of crap for its ox cart rear end, but I applaud Ford for sticking to their guns. I have made the analogy before that Ford and the solid rear axle are like Porsche and the rear engine. There are, as I see it, three levels of understanding. Those that know nothing about cars and could care less. Those that know a bit about cars, and like to criticizes so called engineering problems like a solid rear axle and a rear engine. (see: Top Gear, AutoBlog, Motor Trend, nearly all automotive journalism and those that read it as the gospel) And then there are those that actually know, like automotive engineers, race teams, and mechanics, who all love the mustang. IRS adds hundreds of pounds, hundreds of dollars, greater power drain, needless complexity (simple is better, mechanics, engineers, and racers know this), for a little benefit in corner stability on crap roads.

    Granted the stock suspension on a Mustang is not the best. But that is due to the springs, shocks, and roll bars, not the axle. I put a Steeda suspension on my mustang and its like a whole new beast. It is extremely tight in the corners, even rutted corners. I can swing the back out with ease. If I did not know I had a solid rear axle, there is no way I could tell just by driving it, and, I have more engine power making it to the wheels, I have less costly repair/modding bills, the suspension is a breeze to diagnose and can be fixed in my garage on the weekend (if there is a problem which there is less likely to be) and my car weighs less. Win win in my book.

    Also, on the topic of engines. (I am clearly procrastinating on doing the much needed work I had planned for today). Those who know a bit about cars read HP numbers and think thats the end the of the story. Those who know more about cars read torque numbers, and ask about the power-band, and inquire about how good the engine is as a base for future mods. A turbo four can deliver the same HP as a lazy V8 (Top Gear called the Mustang 4.6L lazy for only producing 300HP out of 4.6 Liters), but once you motivate that V8, its a monster. And... not all driving is done on the track while pushing the limits, so a lazy V8 offers much more useable power. Its more refined in its power delivery and you dont feel so bad when your ring it out, because your not anywhere near its limits of power. You can have fun with it in the low rpms as well.

    In short.. my point is that the Mustang is the thinking mans performance car.

    Of course I think that because I bought one (and LOVE it), but there is my argument for the Mustang. I dont mean to imply that an STi sucks. Any car that achieves some level of notoriety does so because it is able to achieve something special. The STi is an amazing machine, and I am sure I would own one if I could own more than one performance car. I would also own an EVO, and a Porsche 911, and a MX5, and an RX7, and a lotus, and...
    #65
  6. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

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    I would think that's got more to do with the tune of your suspension and the short wheel base you're working with than the design of your IRS itself. My XR7 has a long wheel base with IRS and SC springs and shocks and it not only out handles any pre S197 stock Mustang I've ever been in, or come up against but it rides like a dream. And it was designed in the late-80's. :shrug:

    On a side note….I just took delivery of my new (to me) ’06 F150 and it rides better than most cars I’ve been in….and it’s a friggin 4X4 P/U truck. :rlaugh:
    #66
  7. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    You bring up some great points, especially about power delivery and power-band. I certainly look at that info, because I don't like a car that has power down low and no balls up top. I like something that has power everywhere.

    As for an IRS being more expensive than a live axle suspension, here's something funny to chew on. When Ford designed the new Mustang, going with the live axle was supposed to save them around $200 per vehicle, but what wound up happening was that the live axle wound up costing them about $100 per vehicle. Apparently, someone miscalculated. Oops. :)

    In regards to your comments about the STi, I didn't get the impression at all from your post that the STi sucked. There are certainly faults with it, believe me. Head too quick for a corner and the lunch special is a large helping of understeer.

    Well, one thing's for sure, the STi is a very stiff riding machine. As for why it is a bit choppy in the corners is anybody's guess, and it may very well be due to a short wheelbase, but I would think that an Evo would have the same issue.

    Long wheel-based cars are widely known for their superior ride qualities, but they're the short-wheel-based models that do most of the handling. :)

    Congrats on the "new" ride.
    #67
  8. stangdude2000

    stangdude2000 Founding Member

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    Top Speed, excellent points. Just remember the "rice" pieces on mustangs are optional. I also would never consider the STi (or even regular WRX) to be rice, until someone puts on an obnoxious coffee can muffler, Greddy Quad Turbo stickers, or 28" rims.

    To be fair, you have the STi - the top of the line Impreza/WRX. The top of the line mustang is the GT500 - wouldn't that be more of a fair comparison. True, in 2005 the GT was top of the line... but that was then. The MSRP comparisons are a little off (even moreso now in 2010), but none of the model levels really match up well. Base WRX is less than a base GT and the STi is more than the GT but less than the GT500.

    Bottom line, you rarely find people cross-shopping those two models, so it is tough to do a comparison. But not looking at price and solely comparing the top of the line models such as you did, things look a bit different. But then again, Subaru almost seems to consider the "Impreza" a completely different model line than the "Impreza WRX"...
    #68
  9. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    Well, I guess we can compare the GT500 to an STi, albeit it's a bit of a strange comparo. I highly doubt people would be cross-shopping the two, but what the Hell, this is the internet, and stranger comparos have probably taken place. :nice:

    Well, I'd put my money on an STi on a tight and twisty track, especially because of its close-ratio transmission, AWD setup, and lighter weight, but that's about where it would end for me. Get both of them on any track with a long straight and it's curtains for the STi.

    While some corners after a long straight may present themselves, I think as close as an STi would get to the GT500 would be nipping at its heels because of the lead that the GT500 put on it. Then, it's going to be the same thing all over again. It's going to take one Hell of a driver to either pass that GT500, or a mistake on the part of the GT500's driver.

    Regarding the WRX Vs. the GT, that would actually be a pretty good comparo. For 2009 the WRX got a boost in hp to 265, and apparently they are doing the 1/4 in the mid/high 13s, in no small part due to their AWD drivetrain. I personally haven't seen it, so I can't vouch for it, but that's what I've "heard through the grapevine." I've also heard reports that the WRX will outpace the STi to 60 mph because less shifts are required.
    #69
  10. oh9mustang

    oh9mustang Banned

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    My 09 Gt cost $26,000 and change, What dose a POS 4 door cost? I have raced a couple WRX's and beat them, Whoopty doo. They sound like a baby caff calling for it's mom. I don't go around corners fast, Whats the point?
    Why any American would own a car that the bottom line money goes to Japan is beyond me. And a 4 door? My 82 year old mother owns a 2 door cougar. A forester is a station wagon.
    #70
  11. autumn_again

    autumn_again New Member

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    you haven't been in a well enough set up car to corner then. my brothers 911, and my friends wrx, have gotten me hooked on cornering, straight line acceleration isn't as fun anymore.



    look at the price of a new GT, i've seen them well into the 30k range. so you can't bring price into this game because if we wanted to talk prices buy a 500 $ four banger fox body and throw a 302 with aluminum heads nice size cam, and a shot of juice on it and be done with it for less then most peoples down payments.
    #71
  12. GreyDiesel

    GreyDiesel New Member

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    I heard that, but I think its missleading. The IRS would have cost more in warentee. Plus, that is comparing the initial cost of a crap IRS to a very good solid rear axle. There is an IRS in the Cobra and most people dont like it. Ford went with the solid rear axle because... should I say it?

    Quality is job 1

    :rolleyes:

    The solid rear was higher quality, even if it was a bit more expensive. initially.
    #72
  13. Ken04

    Ken04 New Member

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    put a WRX and a S197 together and look at them. I mean,,,,COME ON ! Who wouldn't take the Mustang ?

    How many body styles in history have that ability to take your breath away ? Ford GT40, Saleen S7, Ferrari 250 GT, Jaguar XKE, a few others.

    How many of those can you buy for around $30K with a full factory warranty and still make you grin from ear to ear when you get on the gas ?

    How many people will walk up to a guy in a Subaru and say; "wow, nice car". How many people have their head on a swivel when you go by them on a freeway, or give you a thumbs up ?

    Subaru, nice car. I like the technical side of them, boxer engine, AWD, etc. Same with the Evo and others. But buddy, aint nuthin that looks like a Stang. An icon for almost 50 years. Been here while the Camaro, Cuda, Challenger, Charger, Road Runner and all the rest died, and either came back or tried to.
    #73
  14. oh9mustang

    oh9mustang Banned

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    autumn_again
    My mustang had a $32,000 SRP, soooooo. That don't mean nothing.
    Corner all you like. Go around Tokyo and then stay there.
    Japan cars are just crap. And any American that buys one is just Un-American.
    If you like *** cars, Good for you, You have no Japanese history or American loss of life or blood.
    Bro
    Tokyo is waiting for you. Go ahead,
    Mustangs forever, American Mussle. A V-8 Mustang. Anything else, Bite me.
    #74
  15. bradleyem

    bradleyem Member

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    Ok, I love American Muscle and bought a Mustang because I love Mustangs (this is my 3rd one)

    BUT.....a properly built import is nothing to laugh at and certainly not a POS.

    They are as alike as a Mustang and a Ferrari (and I doubt that any real car lover here would call a Ferrari a POS). Different cars that are good at different things. I won't argue, just watch these vids and see what a POS a WRX is:

    YouTube - Ken Block Gymkhana Training

    YouTube - [0-60] Ken Block's snowboard/rally bit from DC's Mtn.Lab 1.5
    #75
  16. lostprophet894

    lostprophet894 New Member

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    This guy reminds me of Clint Eastwood from Gran Torino. :rlaugh:

    Just sayin'. :D
    #76
  17. autumn_again

    autumn_again New Member

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    i don't quite understand the tokyo comments, i see that they are a pathetic attempt to relate what i am saying to tokyo drift, which is pretty stupid.

    if japanese cars are such crap, why are american car makers trying to make their own version of these cars? i am not a big import fan, i've been raised on muscle cars all my life. its what i enjoy driving. but the imports did it right, 4 bangers with good fuel economy in a smaller car.

    how are you going to throw out an american tragedy when we're just talking about cars. thats like me not ever buying a volkswagen,porsche, bmw, audi, etc, because of hitler. you want to get on the made in ____ card i bet half the sh¡t you own says made in tokyo or some other foreign land on it. sh¡t, you buy GM parts it says made in canada right on it, or australia or another foreign land. i know your going to throw out ford, and off hand, i can't think of what it says on their boxes and stuff because i don't get many ford parts at my work, but i bet you its not as 100% american as your probably thinking.

    its unamerican to buy a car that is good on gas and pretty damn reliable? for quite a while america hasn't had much offering thats why every commercial you see on tv is check out the new 4,673 mpg ford fusion, or chevy volt or whatever it is on tv. we're playing catch up in sales, what was a hot american item up until recently? SUVs? how fuel effecient are SUVs, not very. how are gas prices? not bad now, but they had a time when they were at 4.00 + per gallon. on a vehicle that gets 17 high way and 12 city thats not a good vehicle to own during that time period.

    and i know your going to say the videos bradley posted are stupid, cause you seem a pretty much set in your little 1/4 mile world. its fun for those 5-23 seconds.

    but try cornering a little bit, and get the adrenaline going when you can feel the cars pretty much at the ends of its limits, where you are in the throttle seeing how long you can stay in it before you have to brake, and always try to brake late and get in the throttle early. its exciting. don't have to be doing 140 to get a good thrill.


    i dig your awesome toyko comments though, trying to come up with nifty ways to insult people because you can't find a good way to back up your statements, as with your traction thread, and several other times you've been called out on things you've said.

    american mussle forever eh? is that japanese?

    got a friend who has a toyota that he beats the everloving **** out of. his 04 grand prix with less mileage is having a big problem while the toyota is still running strong. i've got 2 fords at my house on jackstands with blown motors, one paint is original and car isn't that old, but its completely rusting out. quality is number 1.


    not to nit pick american companies since i work for one. but i don't have the high and mighty attitude about the companies, i know they all have their flaws. i look at them realistically. i am for american companies all the way, i've been raised ford lincoln mercury. but i'll respect anything that can hold its own.


    hell. feel the leather in our cars and then go feel an infiniti with leather. then wonder what leather we paid for. imports have stepped it up quite a bit since 1945.

    now i'm going to go watch that ken block video and think of what a pos it is. :rolleyes:


    what years your moms cougar? most recent years? the mazda/yamaha/mitsubishi bastard child? thats right, american companies are partners with japanese companies.

    3000gt and dodge stealth? suzuki grand vitara and pontiac torrent? etc. way too many to list.
    #77
  18. autumn_again

    autumn_again New Member

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    the thing that pulled ford thru is the models like the 6 banger and the 4 banger. if it wasn't for them i don't know if our cars would be doing the same thing the roadrunner and all are doing. hah.

    you gotta think, it may be a good thing some of them died off, i don't think i could take another generation charger like this. [​IMG] :lol:

    fords done good with the mustang i definitely agree with you though. keeping it strong, keeping most fans happy. best bang for buck car you can buy new.
    #78
  19. autumn_again

    autumn_again New Member

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    sorry for 3 posts in a row, but forgot this one, the rear end on the s197 has ****ed off alot of people. from switching from a good working 4 link to a decent 3 link. and solid axle with a IRS option vs just solid axle.

    several people swap the irs cobra rear into everything from foxbodys to new edge gts. some people like the IRS.

    they both have their good areas. ford should of kept it 4 link and gave an option for irs.

    my biggest thing is the damn wheel hop these cars have. replaced upper and lower control arms, and still every once ina blue moon it'll hop. especially in the rain. its not quite as violent as stock, where you feel you might get hit in the face with your dashboard as it gets ripped off from the earthquake like shutters you get.

    if i had heavier wheels on the car i'm sure that'll help solve the problem, but it wasn't a problem for my bone stock 94 gt. yet i buy a brand new "muscle" car and i have to throw $400+ at the rear end to fix a problem that a car on with a chassis based in 1979 didn't have.
    #79
  20. Top Speed

    Top Speed New Member

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    WOW, just...WOW. I am sure you've impressed everyone with the stories of your wild adventures of beating a car with 224 hp (WRX). Let me be the first to congratulate you! You, sir, are my true hero. :hail2:

    :notnice:

    And I won't even further respond to you, because you are just a...never mind. I'll just be nice and call you "uneducated." The more I read your posts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, the more I get the impression that you're either a spoiled teenager whose daddy bought him his first car, or this Mustang is the first half-decent car you have ever owned.

    So, which is it?

    And on a last note, I'm just going to be the good samaritan here and let you know that with each and every post you make, you just manage to continue to make yourself look worse and worse. Please, step back, and smell your BS. :bs: You'll thank yourself; I promise.
    #80
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