in case u ever wondered what the s/c cobras rwhp stock..

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by Pokageek, Dec 2, 2008.


  1. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Stock GM LS1 parts are equal to the aftermarket sbf parts. I would guess it is the H/C/I that makes it perform so well. I think what is throwing u off is that they are saying "302" which references the block. I am not speaking of detonation limits, but in terms of POWER does anyone know if the BLOCK is made differently on an LS1 to make it more efficient or powerful than the 302 block? Again I am not speaking strength of block, I am speaking in terms of the block somehow makes more power?
  2. Adam95GT

    Adam95GT New Member

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    im tired of the sbf / lsx debate can we just leave this topic alone for ever
  3. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    I've actually seen pictures of people installing LS1 heads on an SBF. I don't exactly see the point of this, as the conversion costs as much as a good set of aftermarket heads, but with some modifications you can do it.

    Kurt
  4. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    Already covered this, but we can go over it again. The LS1 has more hemispherical combustion chambers that foster more even combustion. It also has a better valve angle for better flow. the intake runners are shaped to favor a more even torque band. Basically they are designed to even the flow at higher or lower intake velocity. The intake is a much better short runner design, which distributes air more evenly. The SBF generally runs cylinders 1 and 5 on the lean side, because those runners are longer. If you look at any of the good aftermarket SBF intakes, you'll notice aside from overall size that the biggest difference is the effort put in to make all the runners as similiar in length as possible. Although due to the distributer location, this is almost impossible. The LS1 is not just another pushrod engine. If you look mod for mod, LS1 engines are making more power than similar volume SBF intakes with smaller camshafts.

    Kurt
  5. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    You do know that the ls1 computer is much more advanced than the fox or even the Sn-95 computers, right? Therefore, with a tune, more dimensions can be tweaked for better driveability. This is NOT part of the ls1 engine, but the engine management system.

    The block strength is not an issue. It is comparing the engine set-up which is all actually similar. Just an FYI, this may help your case. A stronger block will produce more power. Hmmm.

    I have been where you guys where, just a year ago, on the other side of the debate.

    There are tons of Ls1 and 347 SBF engines that routinely run over 400 RWHP. I have drove/raced a 399 RWHP ls1. It was not as docile as one may believe it is. If you have a 347, with a TFS-1 cam, GT-40 cylinder heads, and a GT-40 intake, and you add a custom camshaft, AFR 205 cc, and a RPM II or Systemax intake, there is your 130-160 BHP gain.

    An aluminum block has iron sleeves.

    I am still waiting on what is so technologically advanced from the ls1 pushrod engine and the SBF pushrod?

    Is it the Ls1's 10.375" (12.875" + 7.875"/2) runners? Is it the 462 cc runner volume in the runners? Is it the 2.64" x 1.00" flange exit port? I want specifics. :)
  6. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    So how does the Ls1 combustion chamber compare to the aftermarket combustion chamber aluminum heads? Have you seen the new AFR head? It has a better valve angle than the ls1 series cylinder heads.

    How are the runners shaped to promote more even cylinder fill?

    I have an ls1 intake sitting right beside me.

    Have you not seen inside the SBF aftermarket intakes? The outside runners, in your example #1 and #5, are shorten in the upper plenum to compensate for the longer lower runners on the same cylinders. :)

    Also, the supposed "longer runners" run rich, not lean. The turns and length on the STOCK intake creates less air flow. All cylinders are getting the same fuel, but the #1 and #5 cylinders are getting less air, so therefore that creates a rich condition.

    Happy Holidays everyone!
  7. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    I think revhead pretty much knocked it out of the park but let me add to that. When I say far superior design and more efficient I'm not just talking about the heads I am more so refering to the block. Everyone knows the more rigid the block the more power your gonna make. Considerable design resources went into making the structure of the LS1 case both lighter and more rigid than the iron block it replaced. Examples are: 1) many, external, stiffening ribs, 2) six-bolt, steel, main bearing caps and 3) the "skirt" that extends below the crankshaft centerline. These features make an extremely rigid case. For me the block not the heads are the most impessive part of the LS1 platform. The pay-off is less noise and vibration, better fuel economy, reduced emissions, improved durability and higher performance. Without even talking about heads this puts the LS1 in a class all its own, weather you like it or not.

    Can you get a stronger SBF aftermarket block? Of course, hell you can get it in aluminum if you like. Can you go out and buy girdles sure you can, if you plan on making any real power you better. Can you buy a stroker kit to make more power? Of course you can. Will it cost you out the ass you better believe it. There are plenty of companys out there who are making big money on the shortcommings of the factory SBF everyone hear already knows that.

    And I don't know where your from but around here, we say

    Merry Christmas
  8. revhead347

    revhead347 I have face herpes.

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    Maybe he's jewish man. Don't descriminate, Happy Holidays is a perfectly acceptable substitute.

    The new AFR heads are just regular wedge heads. If you have a set of LS1 heads and a set of AFR heads side by side you'll see the differences. My Canfields are a 17 degree head. Stock are what, like 22 degrees. The SBC2 heads are like 12 degrees. I have no idea what the AFR heads are. I was never that impressed with AFR heads anyway.

    Kurt
  9. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

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    All of this praise and argument over the fact that chevy made a stronger block?:shrug:

    Popular opinion notwithstanding, I'd like to see something scientific like....oh... something called "evidence." This is an academic point at best. Unless you're at the limits and getting serious flex from the internals or the block, there is not going to be any notable difference here.

    Then you're not in line with your original premise about efficiency. Here is what you said about efficiency:

    So from that it can be derived that you define "efficiency" as power/c.i. The point that 5spd GT is making is that there is nothing so efficient about an LS1 that a SBF windsor can't match with after market parts. The same technology that works for LS1s works for SBFs. It's just a different initial platform. Fuel and air still moves into a cylindrical space with a piston on the bottom and a cylinder head on the top. Other than the fact that the SBF has a bigger bore and a shorter stroke, there really is no difference once you account for the aftermarket because the same amount of technology is involved in both. Ultimately, you arrive at the inevitable conclusion that the only way to decide one way or the other is personal preference.

    prove it. Until you can, this is conjecture. Stock for stock this statement is true, but in the after market it absolutely is not.

    Block strength does not put the LS1 into a class all its own. The OHC blocks that ford has been producing since before the LS1 are at least as strong as the LS1 blocks. I say that because I haven't seen any documented cases of either block breaking due to any amount of power production. Bad tunes or other broken parts are always the culprit. The Supra was producing a bullet proof block in '93. The Cobra had a bullet proof block and internals in '03. Both of these engines are stronger than any LSx block in any stock production vehicle to date with exception to the $100+k LS9. To me, the LS1 doesn't compare favorably.

    So you've changed the point of your argument from efficiency to block strength... How boring this argument has become. The SBF windsor is good for at least 600 hp... More than enough for the vast vast majority of owners both chevy and ford alike, and if you're going to look for more than that, you've got a long way to go even if you own an LS1. Sure, the block will hold up, but how about those internals? Are you going to utilize stock cylinder heads? Not likely. Either platform you start with is going to require a big dollar build to get the hp past this limit. The only common engines that I know of that will make power past 600 safely without a big $ build are SBFs, namely the blown 4.6, and the blown 5.4 modulars that come in '03+ supercharged mustangs.

    Chris
  10. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

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    For stock LSx motors they're 15*... same as the SBF wedge heads from TFS... I didn't know AFR revised their 20* intake ports, but who cares... This is another academic point anyway... Maybe it matters to coorporate racing teams who sweat over a tenth of a hp difference, but it doesn't matter to those of us who give up at least 20hp because we can't spend weeks on a dyno tuning individual cylinders.

    The only 12* intake valve angle'd heads that I know of come in the form of an LS7 engine, and we all know how horribly inefficient they are due to poor block strength [/sarcasm] - in case that went over anyone's head, more than a few LS7 owners have destroyed blocks at over 800 hp. Block strength is the reason that the LS9 engine doesn't utilize the LS7 engine block.

    Chris
  11. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

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    I was here 7 years ago, David... where were you?:nice:

    It brings a tear to my eye:rlaugh:

    If by new you mean newer than the same stuff they've been making for the last 3-4 years, then no. Please enlighten me. I couldn't find any new ford stuff on their website, either.

    Thanks,

    Chris
  12. SVT32VDOHC

    SVT32VDOHC waiting for the next hack atta Founding Member

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    408RWHP on a stock 03-04?? That's really good. I've seen 380-390 and I thought that was high. He must have a strong car and be in a good spot as far as elevation/tempurature are concerned.
  13. martyd

    martyd New Member

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  14. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    You got a good point!

    These SBF vrs LS1 threads always seem to get some all hot and bothered

    If one compares stock to stock :)

    Well ... that is just not fair :nono:

    I mean ... The SBF came out in the early 60's :eek:
    AND
    It really ain't changed much since then :D

    The LS1 is a really nice offering from Chevy :nice:
    but
    They built it using a clean sheet of paper to speak ;)
    so
    Heck Fire Yes ... It has got much newer technology on its side
    and
    You gotta give Chevy credit for making a really nice STOCK motor

    Now ... as I see it

    It all boils down to what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy :banana:

    For me ... Its pushrods forever :Word:

    I'm older than most of you guys and I relive my youth with my little GT :rlaugh:

    When I lift that hood I wanna see what I think looks like a hot rod motor

    It looks like a 221-302 SBF or 5.0 Liter if you prefer
    or
    It looks like a 351 Windsor
    also
    It DON'T look like an over grown motorcycle engine ... (mod motor)

    I build hot rods :spot:
    and
    They got hot rod parts like heads, headers, etc ;)

    I would not EVEN be interested with ANY car I had not modded
    when talking about my ... Weekend Toy

    That goes for a Chevy with a LS1 motor
    and
    Same can be said for Fords such as the 03 Cobra and the like

    ANYBODY can buy a fast car :Word:

    That ... To Me ... Well ... That ain't hot rodding :nono:

    If you wanna buy a car from the factory and keep it stock
    then
    A Chevy with the LS1 does offer good power
    but
    It still is a Chevy :(

    Just a few thoughts from my perspective I guess :)

    Grady
  15. martyd

    martyd New Member

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    I understand what you are saying but when comparing technology of say a gm pushrod engine vs a ford pushrod engine you dont throw up stroker kits, aftermarket heads, cams, and so forth. You look at the design the is presented. If that is the case take a look at the trickflow 440 lsx engine that is making 680hp and 600tq on pump gas with 235cc heads. How about the lingerfelter twin turbo C6's with built LSX's and over 1200whp.


    [​IMG]


    How about that truck

    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e228/RedStroke/Superduty%20Cummins/DYNO1111hp.jpg

    with over 1400ft lbs of tq that truck is street driven

    I like Ford, take nothing away from them because from 79 till around 86 they had the only American muscle/sports car worth having. But the fact remains that if ford would have taken half the money they spent on retooling factories and redesigning a it's engine family then they to at this point could have a production pushrod V8 with decent fuel economy(26+mpg on the highway) that would be looked at and praised like gen 3 and gen 4 GM powerplants. At only 14 years old the mod motor is looked over and not paid attention too for good reason. It is to the American muscle car scene what Honda's are to the import scene. They have standout examples of the powerplants in such cars as the Cobra and GT500 but for the most part you have to add $2000+ in parts to start getting serious jumps in power. $600 for cams? $520+ for a cheaper brand Professional Products intake? $2000+ for a set of heads.

    This is not about the mod motor though, look at a 351. How much would need to be spent to make 350 to 400hp out of it? How much would need to be spent to bring the small block 351 with 1 more cubic inch of displacement to the abilities of a stock 350hp LS1 that will hang around 6200 to 6700rpm all day without a problem? See then you take that amount and buy stuff for the LS1 also. With a $4000 budget which would make more power a LS1 or a 351w?
  16. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    I dunno man. It just is what it is. :shrug: I don;t think he was concerned about sea level or anything. Md is probably average. The car just puts out those numbers but I could care less either way really. They just seem to pump out a lot.

    On the lsx engine? "440" engine? ok...then compare that to a 440 ford engine. Right? We are getting a bit exaggerated on the comparisons, lets keep it at least logical, lol. And since its gone this far, NA there's no difference with equivalent parts and c.i.
  17. martyd

    martyd New Member

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    Realistic. Ok take the last part of my post.

    Put a fuel injected 351w vs a fuel injected 346 ls1 against eachother. Both stock displacement and 9.5 to 1 to 10.5 to 1 compression ratios. What could a 351 produce with a set of heads, a cam, a intake, all the supporting mods(fuel pumps/injectors, so on and so forth)
  18. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all" Founding Member

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    FastDriver - I completely agree with your post. All of the positives of an Ls1 engine can be had from the SBF aftermarket.

    Have any of you guys seen the prices on stroker kits for the LsX engines? Now compare them to an SBF stroker kit price. Also, a similar sized 440 CI engine made by Ford could produce those power numbers near 700 HP.

    A street car/truck is so subjective. ONE THOUSAND, FOUR HUNDRED FT. LBS OF TORQUE will need some care driving around.


    By the way, here is some info from the new cylinder head for Spring/Early Summer from AFR that I was referring to:

    Alright, here it is....New head....and.... - Corral Forums

    Oh, and I say Happy Holidays for EVERYONE, but I say, Merry CHRISTmas, myself.
  19. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 we love us some gays up here Super Mod

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    If you're allowing us to throw the parts book at the 351W in comparison to a stock LS1, then I would give the advantage to the Ford. If we're going to play on even ground with one and other, I would say the victory goes to the owner with the deepest pockets. With the 351W's conservative factory top end parts replaced with aftermarket goodies, its going to be every bit as capable going mod for mod with the LS1. There are plenty of guys on this site that have already proven that. :shrug:
  20. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    Yhank you and Merry Christmas to everyone here to. Good debate. I am saying take a 351w BLOCK and and LS1 BLOCK N.A. all minus the puter and same supporting mods and the 351 will produce more power because it has more cubic inches. Now can anyone prove that statement wrong? 5spd? Does tat make sense? Thanks,

    So my point is that the ls1 is not special or magical, it is simply a well put together combination from the FACTory.

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