in case u ever wondered what the s/c cobras rwhp stock..

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by Pokageek, Dec 2, 2008.


  1. martyd

    martyd New Member

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    Yes I did, sorry that I do not know every little working part that aids in it's design off the top of my head. I had to look up the weight of the 260/289/302 windsor also.
     
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  2. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    I do. Makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it this way! :nice::SNSign:
     
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  3. FastDriver

    Mod Dude

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    So if I show you an SBF Windsor that puts out more than 515 hp from the 302 based block, do I win? Or does that just drag this debate on to more excuses? My guess is that you really don't want to see a SBF putting out that much or more power. So, you will be forced to argue how unstreetable it would be, and how it isn't fair because the SBF has better parts or whatever.

    Mine ran 13.2@108 and I bet with enough passes and good conditions it'll go 12s.
    er... mine went [email protected] Do I get a pat on the back?
    replace "run with" to "completely crush" and this makes a little more sense.

    Now, I'd like to inform you that mild bolt-ons will put a fox-body 5.0 into the 12s... also a fact... now what?
    The point is that there's nothing magical about LS1 engineering that will make them make more power than a similar displacement similar build ford.

    I'm just waiting for you to tell me that we win if I can show you one.:nice:

    Chris
     
    #163
  4. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    You know more about dynos than I do, that does make more sense.
     
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  5. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    No what I want you to do is show me how to break down a post sentence by sentence.

    Well if gearbanger is correct and 515hp is based on an almost naked motor with no accessorys sitting on an engine stand. Than everyone knows a stroked sbf will put very close to 400rwhp to the ground so your a little late here. But your welcome to come in and play. If you would like to show us all a stroker I'll give you a gold start too.
    Im gonna check with trickflow monday because I would like to get some facts from them on there number and how much rwhp this thing really puts down.

    Now I already said in my previous post that I am aware of what a FOX is capable of. You don't have to make ridicuous power in a fox if you can get it to hook. So 11.9 is very attainable.
    "Mild bolt ons will put a fox in the 12's, " that IMO depends on your definitions of mild bolt ons and again if you can get it to hook that is the key with a fox. But since you bring it up go ahead and tell us your recipe for putting a fox in the 12s. Most here have SN95s not foxes but enlighten us anyway.

    Magical LS1 no, not magical. Better design vs a sbf yes obviously my own opinion here but yes I still beleive that and nobody here will convince me otherwise so again we agree to disagree. MOD FOR MOD the LS1 will still make more power. You cannot make over 400+hp NA with a sbf without stroking the motor.

    Now Im gonna re-ask my question since it never got answered. Which of these two cars will make the most power on a $4000 dollar budget.

    94 mustang GT vs 98 LS1 Any takers?

    Fast driver if you can get it you can get two stars today.
     
    #165
  6. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Cool :nice:

    ...and I hope you don't think I was trying to show you up man, I just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page with the figures. I'd take 515hp no matter what form it was in. :)
     
    #166
  7. martyd

    martyd New Member

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    I will help them out a little, take a 95 with a bone stock 351 swapped in it. Both carbed, both stock short blocks.
     
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  8. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Tough to call. Since stroker rotating assemblies are so inexpensive for the 302W and aluminum heads can ge had fairly reasonable now a days it going to be a toss up since displacement, heads and intake seem to be the only major deciding factors between the two engines. 550hp seems to be the limit of the stock 302W block, but then again you won't get hit that figure with either of the engines (unless you dump a pile of nitrous into the mix) for $4,000.

    Tough call....too tough to call accuratly IMO. Any answers given would be purely speculation as far as I'm concenred. :shrug:
     
    #168
  9. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all"
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    Thank you FastDriver.

    I am not sure how anyone thinks that my H/C/I 302 did not take ls1's day after day. :shrug:

    I do not lie.

    I trapped 4-5 MPH faster than the 4L60E cars on the same night. The T-56's were 2-3 MPH slower than mine, at 3,400 lbs race weight. The closest track to me is a 1000 ft. track (between 1/8-1/4). My friends stock '99 SS (auto) ran 94.XX MPH. I ran 99.31 MPH. On the same night, a guy had a ws6 that was trapping just over 97 MPH, with exhaust.

    515 HP minus drivetrain loss, minus accessory loss, is quite mild.
     
    #169
  10. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all"
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    I was simply showing that that information was coming out of an article that is bragging on the LsX, because everyone knows that a valley girdle tray/support does nothing. They were trying to find anything to brag about, to show the novice racer how special the LsX engine is.

    That sentence alone was not meant to be degrading.

    On another note, many think that the ls1 has large cylinder heads because they look at volume alone (cubic centimeters), when they do not take into account the longer average runners on the ls1 cylinder head. It equates to roughly a 185'ish cc head on a SBF.
     
    #170
  11. 5spd GT

    5spd GT "the 5.0 owns all"
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    I am still trying to figure how what is the better design? Is it the ls1's heavier pushrods? Tiny bore?

    An Ls1, with the same relative condition, year-to-year, will cost 2X more.

    As far as 400 HP on a 302 (not a stroker), what about Marc Arnold's Cobra that dynoed 400 RWHP with his 302? That is with drivetrain loss. That is with accessory loss.

    If you even up the cubic inchs, the SBF will make more power. The cylinder heads are cheaper, the intakes are cheaper, and all other aftermarket parts are cheaper.

    If you refuse to even up the cubic inchs, you might as well ask:

    What will make more power? A 1.8L V-Tech or a LsX engine with a $4,000 budget.

    One day you will learn. I was, where you were, not to long ago. :nice:
     
    #171
  12. Black95GTS

    Black95GTS Active Member

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    You speak the truth here David. 95% of the people in this thread are bench/dyno racers. Peak horse power means nothing. AVERAGE horse power is what moves a car down the track. This thread sounds like an LS1Tech.com thread, where the posters all argue who's I/C/Tune package makes better numbers on the dyno.

    The advantages that an LS1 has over a SBF, that I can see, is that the intake tract is slightly more direct to the cylinder heads and the block is a 6 bolt aluminum affair. Nothing that is mind blowing IMO.

    Adam
     
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  13. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    Tiny bore and heavy pushrods?? Are we getting desperate 5spd? hmmm? Were talking about an all aluminum engine that is as strong as any iron block out there. I seriously doubt the weight of the pushrods is gonna have much of an affect. Tiny bore? Its enough bore to top 500hp with a top end kit, I think I can learn to live with it. With regards to cost you may have a slight point but it ain't by much. Any top end kit I ever saw for a sbf will put you somewhere around $2500 bucks when its all said and done.
    And you throw numbers around like were all supposed to just buy it cause you said it, maybe some of your followers will but I don't. I don't know who Marc Arnold is. Fox or sn95? What was his combo? Do you have a dyno sheet to back up what you say, inquiring minds wanna know?

    And with regards to loss. I SHOW you a top end kit that makes 515hp with a tested combo. Your response is "well your gonna loose 30% of that with accesories and driveline." OK
    Now you want me to believe that this 302 can make 400rwhp after driveline and accessories. Do physics not apply to SBF engines? That would mean this NA 302 is making close to 575hp according to your 30% loss figure? Does that sound about right to you or do SBF have a different percentage of loss than Chevy's.:bs:

    And this statement here,

    "If you even up the cubic inchs, the SBF will make more power. The cylinder heads are cheaper, the intakes are cheaper, and all other aftermarket parts are cheaper."

    So by your logic a 347 should smoke any NA 346 on the road correct?
     
    #173
  14. FastDriver

    Mod Dude

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    Dammit David... You're stealing my thunder:nonono:


    Start like this... Ah hell, explanations are too complicated. Just hit quote and you can see the codes used.

    Dang... I really wanted that pat on the back.

    Sure, I'd love to show you some stuff, but when you go and say things like:
    :rolleyes: That's a winning attitude...

    I get the impression that you're too closed minded to hear what I have to say. You act as though you're listening, but you don't seem to hear anything. What do you want to see, exactly? If I showed you a fuel injected, hydro cammed, 9.7 second, 140mph trapping, stock blocked 347 making ~550rwhp, would you give a little more credit to the SBF? I don't think you would. Earlier you showed an example of an n/a 346 cube LS1 making 515hp on an engine dyno. What if I showed you and n/a 302-based SBF Windsor making over 200 hp more than that? Then, would you concede just a little ground in your quest to convince a mustang message-board that the "LS1 is touched by God, and SBFs were made to **** on." Would those examples be enough? Alas, I suspect not... After all, no one can convince you otherwise. Right?

    Sticky tire, gears, short belt, headers+mid-pipe, removed air-silencer, CAI, TB, remove front sway-bar, advanced timing, dump the clutch fan at the track, iced intake. Does that work for your definition of "mild bolt-ons?" I can't take credit for that list. It was taken from Bob Cosby's old website, which thousands of fox-body owners emulated and achieved similar results. I'll quote that website verbatim at the end of my post.

    I wouldn't bet $ on it if I were you...

    Who cares, I wouldn't start with either car if it were me.

    For those of you who've never heard of him, you should dig out the old 5.0 rags, and/or start googling. His accomplishments at the track speak for themselves. This is Bob Cosby's 12 second recipe verbatim from his now expired website:

     
    #174
  15. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    Certainly I would love to see it so long as its a NA setup on a streetable car. Don't assume because im a fan of th LS1 that I don't give credit to the SBF, your making assumtions as if you know me, you don't. I've owned 4 mustangs in my time and raced all of them I am fully aware of what a small block SBF is capable of. 550rwhp out of a stock block 347 NA, thats a new one on me but I look forward to you backing that up.[/QUOTE]

    You know its kind of funny reading your posts, you start delivering really good info and then turn to an a$$ hole right at the end. Its like you almost take it personally that I like the LS1. You should chill on that. Don't put words in my mouth. And you ASS/U/ME way to much. My quest to convince a mustang message board that the LS1 is touched by God? Are you serious? Wow just when you almost had me convinced that you were a pretty smart guy. Unlike some on this board at least I have the balls to stand up for what I beleive in, even if I stand alone. You wanna go back to the usual telling each other how right you are and the usual brown nosing I see so much of around here fine, be my guest. The complete a$$ kissing that takes place the minute a debate kicks off is enough to make me wanna puke. I for one think a good healthy debate is good for everyone because it gives the guys here trying to learn both sides of an argument. Just how do these two motors stack up against each other really. What exactly do you have to do to your car to compete with an LS1 or a 347, what does it take to run 12's 11's and still have a reliable street car. These are the kinds of threads were, we all learn and respect each others opinions, well try too anyway. Im not here to convince anybody of anything at the end of the day it all comes down to american muscle if your a true gear head. Whether you choose chevy or ford either will get the job done with the right mods. Both the SBC and the SBF have there good and bad points, neither is touched by the hand of god.

    Personally I think the design of the block is better. I've done my own research to come to that conclusion. So no you will not change my mind on that. And the last time I checked I think thats my right.

    And you call me close minded? Then don't speak on it, im concerned about whats in my garage not yours.
     
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  16. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    Not at all, we don't always agree but I respect your opinion. Great debate.:nice:
     
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  17. Pokageek

    Pokageek Active Member

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    In conclusion, the cobra has amazing rwhp and the ls1 ain't no better than a sbf in terms of HP. :nice: All that back and forth just to say the obvious! :rlaugh: :shrug::SNSign:

    o p.s. Ford IS better!
     
    #177
  18. FastDriver

    Mod Dude

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    I am an *******, and I don't take that or the fact that you like LS1s personally. I love the LS1, honestly - I even own one, see my sig. Though as a moderator I try to set the good example, I'm still just an Army infantryman with an abrasive way of putting things, and I can go a little overbored. I also have a hard time accepting it when Ford folks don't, in my opinion, give Fords enough credit.

    Because of the high-revving cam (8000ish from a hydro roller is super impressive) it wasn't what I would consider streetable, but it was still a pretty sweet setup, and the fact that it's done n/a, fuel-injected, and with a hydaulic roller cam is awesome to me. Here's the site. He made over 400 rwhp with the motor before he stroked it out, which makes for an interesting read, too. Now his combo is an R-blocked 359 that's gone a best 9.59@142.

    :shrug: What can I say? I was overzealous. My apologies.

    :nice:

    :flag:

    Absolutely, and I wouldn't try because in that belief you are absolutely correct. All aluminum, and much more solid. Definitely a huge improvement over the factory windsors. But then, we fortunate souls in the Ford camp have a prosperous and willing aftermarket to turn to.

    No hard feelings, man. You're alright by me. As my pop would say, I get a little to big for my britches from time to time.

    Chris
     
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  19. FastDriver

    Mod Dude

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    Ps. Here's the 302-based 357 c.i. SBF that went 751hp on an engine dyno: 750HP 347ci 205cc. That's obviously an all-out race-only effort, but still cool to see!

    Chris
     
    #179
  20. greenlantern

    greenlantern Member

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    Ahhhh C5, very nice one day I'll have one. Good find on that engine, damn things a monster.:nice:
     
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