Installing a pi Intake

[COramprat]

sooo if you get the plates do you need a tune im lost cuz there was a thread about this along time ago and it said you need a tune

Not neccasarily but it helps. My car started running rich after the swap but I waited until I did my cam swap before I got the tune. IF you are doing the PI intake swap and don't plan on another major mod in the near future then by all means get a tune.

 

[Mike97gt]

I would be shocked if the difference is more than 2-3 hp if any.. 10-15 hp is a lot of hp everybody would have the plates by now. If you are right then I am sure a ton of plates are going to be sold in the near future.

laserred01gt is on a 7 day vacation until we get to the bottom of this, I want the fighting to stop until we get some other dyno numbers.

My line of work and experience is in repairs ( EEC, electrical.. ETC.) My knowledge of mods is not as stong as some of you guys on here. One of the members here is looking up dyno data with and without plates.

 

[justinschmidt1]

Well, I bought thr adapter plates..hopefully sometime in the future I will get a dyno....but that could take a month or two

 

[TGJ]

Well I did some searching over at Modular-Depot and Modular-Ford. Since linking to MD gets blanked out, I won't post the multiple links from the sites. I don't feel like downloading and uploading the dynos I found.

What I found was the average gain of the PI intake swap without the plates is 14 RWHP. Johnny Langton, the first ever to do the swap gained 17 RWHP with a modified PI intake. The modifications was to match the PI intake to the NPI ports, similar to what the plates do. The average gain from those that used the plates was 15 RWHP. Wow a difference of 1 RWHP.

This does not equate 21 HP at the flywheel as Laserred01 said or even that 13 HP. Ok now that I have disproved your BS, where are those Dyno-graphs I asked to see. Yup, you are still drawing them up like you did with that other crap you posted. When I have more time, I put up the dyno-graphs I have.

 

[Mike97gt]

laserredgt will not be able to post for a few more days. check back tot his thread in a week.

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

About 7 years ago when kevin and I were setting up shop back in New Braunfels, TX, we came to the quick realization of how much it really cost to get performance business started. After sinking well over 150k in tools (probably ended up more than that), equipment, computers, diagnostic equipment, etc., we could not afford the extra cost of the Port Flow Analyzer software that now comes as a package deal with the newer Superflow models and we were told it wasn't that big of a deal at the time.

For those here who have been around shops that do cylinder head work and have any experience with flow benches, you will know that without the Port Flow Analyzer software, the SF-600's like we had only spit out raw flow numbers....that's it. We had one of Kevin's employees from his IT business set up a custom program that imported the data from the SF-600 into Excel and made us some very nice looking graphs. It makes it easier to look at flow trends. Another thing, this guy TGJ is asking (I'm sorry, demanding) for the engine dyno graphs. Well those who have actually been around engine dynos and have experience with them, knows darn good and well shops don't keep dyno run files on file for over 6-7 years. You're lucky if they keep them on file for a year.

I don't have the EFI knowledge that some of you do as I grew up in the carburetor days. I'm still a student of making HP just like we all are. I've helped laserred01gt do many PI intakes on the older non-PI heads, and there is a big difference in power and performance between using the adaptor plates and notusing them. Like he said it's just common sense with the dynamics of head flow. Have you guys actually seen how much of a misalignment of the cross-sections there are? It's significant and that turbulence kills the volumetric efficiency of the motor...that hurts power. The adaptor plates significantly help eliminate this turbulence (boundary layer separation if you want fancy). Kevin remembers it being a 21hp peak/13hp avg on Ronnie's engine dyno, but I remember it being greater than that.

We know of plenty of shops back in Texas that were using the Livernois adapter kits with the machined PI intake and adapter plates. After the install and some tuning, they would all see over 30 RWHP gains unless the car was a pig. A tune is not critical, but with the extra volume of air coming in..... a tune just makes sense.

 

[Mike97gt]

If you are saying you got 30+ RWHP with the plates you mean 9 or so over not using the plates. Personaly I still think thats high when you consider there is a port mismatch with a PI intake even when used on a PI head.

BTW If you and kevin own a shop how come he was on here back in october asking about what are good flow numbers from a P+P PI intake, plus he was asking where to go get them done.. Witht he equipment you guys have how come he did not have that information already?

 

[Dusstbuster]

This is also the same guy who went off on HotMustang and started putting words into his mouth...

 

[TGJ]

About 7 years ago when kevin and I were setting up shop back in New Braunfels, TX, we came to the quick realization of how much it really cost to get performance business started. After sinking well over 150k in tools (probably ended up more than that), equipment, computers, diagnostic equipment, etc., we could not afford the extra cost of the Port Flow Analyzer software that now comes as a package deal with the newer Superflow models and we were told it wasn't that big of a deal at the time.

For those here who have been around shops that do cylinder head work and have any experience with flow benches, you will know that without the Port Flow Analyzer software, the SF-600's like we had only spit out raw flow numbers....that's it. We had one of Kevin's employees from his IT business set up a custom program that imported the data from the SF-600 into Excel and made us some very nice looking graphs. It makes it easier to look at flow trends. Another thing, this guy TGJ is asking (I'm sorry, demanding) for the engine dyno graphs. Well those who have actually been around engine dynos and have experience with them, knows darn good and well shops don't keep dyno run files on file for over 6-7 years. You're lucky if they keep them on file for a year.

I don't have the EFI knowledge that some of you do as I grew up in the carburetor days. I'm still a student of making HP just like we all are. I've helped laserred01gt do many PI intakes on the older non-PI heads, and there is a big difference in power and performance between using the adaptor plates and notusing them. Like he said it's just common sense with the dynamics of head flow. Have you guys actually seen how much of a misalignment of the cross-sections there are? It's significant and that turbulence kills the volumetric efficiency of the motor...that hurts power. The adaptor plates significantly help eliminate this turbulence (boundary layer separation if you want fancy). Kevin remembers it being a 21hp peak/13hp avg on Ronnie's engine dyno, but I remember it being greater than that.

We know of plenty of shops back in Texas that were using the Livernois adapter kits with the machined PI intake and adapter plates. After the install and some tuning, they would all see over 30 RWHP gains unless the car was a pig. A tune is not critical, but with the extra volume of air coming in..... a tune just makes sense.

How are you calculating the gains? At 6000 RPM, Johnny Langton saw 31 RWHP difference with his intake over the NPI one. At the peak point it was 17 RWHP. At 6000 RPM, every car I have seen dyno's on whether they used the plates or not gained 25+ RWHP.

I have seen the results of a test on a car that used the plates that were available on stangnet and the RTV method. The car gained 16 RWHP at peak, 29 RWHP at 6000 RPM with the RTV method, using the plates and the same tune, the car lost HP due to a leaner A/F ratio. When retuned it made less than 2 RWHP more than the RTV method.

When I am back at home, I will post the dyno-graph lay over from this. This totally does not agree with what you and LaserRed01GT have said. As to who is correct, I will take my sources over yours everyday of the week.

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

If you are saying you got 30+ RWHP with the plates you mean 9 or so over not using the plates. Personaly I still think thats high when you consider there is a port mismatch with a PI intake even when used on a PI head.

BTW If you and kevin own a shop how come he was on here back in october asking about what are good flow numbers from a P+P PI intake, plus he was asking where to go get them done.. Witht he equipment you guys have how come he did not have that information already?

Let me tell you a little secret Mike....and I mean this with all due respect. When you are new to a website or forum, whatever this is called, one of the best ways to get a feel of who knows what is to throw out a couple of common sense questions. I call it fishing for the truth. As you can see it works. You quickly discover who are the trolls and BS'ers and who are the knowledgeable engine builders. On some of the sites that I am a member of like iATN and Nitromater, this is how the wannebe's are weeded out.

Those who have the experience with building engines will usually have some hardcore data to back themselves up....the others simply quote hearsay off other websites, meaning they don't have any real personal experience with doing these types of tests. So far the only people in this thread with any real testing data is us. Again we welcome anyone to show us some flow data or dyno testing proof, not hearsay or other peoples posted numbers, that would contradict the truth behind the data that resulted from testing that we and shops like Livernois have done over the course of many years.

 

[Mike97gt]

Only one problem your data goes against common known knowledge on every mustang forum. This has been covered before many people have done tests and came up with results much different than yours. Right now real world results are not matching the data you provided.

Plus I am not going to bother calling Livernois or any other company that sells adapter plates because they have a incentive to sell that product. I highly doubt they are going to say " my plates don't add much at all, I suggest you use rtv"

I really want to see you and laserred01gt add to this forum, but the problem is we can't have people fudging data to prove a point when they come off as knowledgeable, that can cause people on here to waste money. I think we need to hold knowledgeable people or people that have a rep of being knowledgeable to a higher standard. When a guy with a good rep that sounds like he knows his stuff says something people listen, I want to make sure they are listening to the right info.

 

[Pennywise2]

laserredgt will not be able to post for a few more days. check back tot his thread in a week.

Having had the Livernois Motorsport PI intake on my old
mustang and driving mustangs that have the PI intake with
the RVT method I can tell you their was no difference in power
at any rpm's.I belive that going with the adapter plates will not
add any power.The only thing they are there for is to ensure
no coolant leaks.LaserRed01GT made those graphs on his computer
and his logic is total BS. Ban him for good Mike for spreading false
information to the mustang community on purpose.It's nice not to
see him on this forum thanks Mike.

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

Only one problem your data goes against common known knowledge on every mustang forum. This has been covered before many people have done tests and came up with results much different than yours. Right now real world results are not matching the data you provided.

Plus I am not going to bother calling Livernois or any other company that sells adapter plates because they have a incentive to sell that product. I highly doubt they are going to say " my plates don't add much at all, I suggest you use rtv"

I really want to see you and laserred01gt add to this forum, but the problem is we can't have people fudging data to prove a point when they come off as knowledgeable, that can cause people on here to waste money. I think we need to hold knowledgeable people or people that have a rep of being knowledgeable to a higher standard. When a guy with a good rep that sounds like he knows his stuff says something people listen, I want to make sure they are listening to the right info.

I appreciate your insight and I apprecite your point of view.

I also appreciate the compliment. There are plenty of common performance shops out there that deliver common horserpower to their customers. Well... we strive to be uncommon and give our customers uncommon horsepower. That's what they deserve when they are forking over their hard earned money and completely putting their faith and their car in our hands. The greatest engine builders on the planet aren't common by any stretch of the imagination.

We pride ourselves in being unconventional.

And by the way to those in question, the negative comments pertaining to the flow charts somehow being made up have grown old and are becoming insulting. Unless someone has a viable and competent counter point, they probably should exercise some self control and refrain from posting

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

Having had the Livernois Motorsport PI intake on my old
mustang and driving mustangs that have the PI intake with
the RVT method I can tell you their was no difference in power
at any rpm's.I belive that going with the adapter plates will not
add any power.The only thing they are there for is to ensure
no coolant leaks.LaserRed01GT made those graphs on his computer
and his logic is total BS. Ban him for good Mike for spreading false
information to the mustang community on purpose.It's nice not to
see him on this forum thanks Mike.

Aren't you the guy who completely lied to all of us not about just owning 1 particular car....but two? And aren't you also the guy who lied to all of us about buying the 50 thousand dollar turbo kit for the car you lied about owning?

 

[Pennywise2]

Aren't you the guy who completely lied to all of us not about just owning 1 particular car....but two? And aren't you also the guy who lied to all of us about buying the 50 thousand dollar turbo kit for the car you lied about owning?

Nope.
Too bad for the mustang community I really own a 07 Subaru STI
and I also bought a turbo kit for it.Don't call me a lair *****.
See you on the streets punk.

 

[san~man]

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[COramprat]

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Some good info...or discrediting of bad coming here...I'd whip out a stick before locking the thread.

Let's keep it decent guys...no need in the personal attacks.

Apologies to justinschmitt for the bickering but maybe we can get to the bottom of the discrepancies.

My personal opinion is I wanted to ensure a good fit with no worries of coolant leaks. That is the reason I bought "homemade" plates and both PI and non-PI gaskets. They were hand blended and looked a little rough but they served the purpose intended. I've had them installed for over 60K miles now. The only comparison I can show is the difference in dyno runs for my car and a car with similar mods save for the PI intake. My car dyno'd at 213HP 273TQ and the other car was at 197HP 265TQ(?). Seems like the that was the TQ number, I don't remember exactly, but the HP number is correct. Now my car was untuned at the time so I could have seen a few more HP that would have possibly put me around 220. I know my track times went from consistent 14.7's to consistant 14.5's with the intake.

What has been explained in flow numbers seem plausible. I noticed the overlap of ports and common sense would tell you that the turbulence created may rob one of some HP...but I don't think it would be the 10-15 claimed. I think the difference would be more along the lines of 3-5...but if someone comes up with the before and after and can tell me that plates make THAT much difference then all I can say is we can line up at the track and I should smoke an RTV'd car with 15 more HP, all other mods being the same.

 

[DropTopPony]

I appreciate your insight and I apprecite your point of view.

I also appreciate the compliment. There are plenty of common performance shops out there that deliver common horserpower to their customers. Well... we strive to be uncommon and give our customers uncommon horsepower. That's what they deserve when they are forking over their hard earned money and completely putting their faith and their car in our hands. The greatest engine builders on the planet aren't common by any stretch of the imagination.

We pride ourselves in being unconventional.

And by the way to those in question, the negative comments pertaining to the flow charts somehow being made up have grown old and are becoming insulting. Unless someone has a viable and competent counter point, they probably should exercise some self control and refrain from posting

Whats the name of your shop?

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

Whats the name of your shop?

The shops in TX were South Texas Chassis which after the partnership became KG Motorsports. KG was sold and now our new shop here in FL has yet to be named as we are not yet open to the public.

But rest assured Bob, you'll be the first person we call when we name the shop here.

By the way, if you would like to learn a little more about cylinder head R&D, I would be more than happy to PM you our number. Just let me know.

 

[justinschmidt1]

hmm...I dont know what to do?..haha should I try to return the adapter plates or should I use them?... I wont have to use rtv with the adapter plates right?