lambse, kams... rich?

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by Mustangless, Nov 6, 2007.


  1. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    Got a little datalogging with BE and now have a few questions. Most of the entire log the kams were .99x-.83x (rich?.) My lambse was anywhere from 12.x-18.x.

    Does 1 or 0 is CL? edit: looks like 1 = CL. I only saw that for a few seconds


    Does this mean I am running rich? My wideband is not working, so I can't use it. :mad:

    log http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=77
  2. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Here is some brief simple info along the lines you ask of :D

    14.7 is considered the standard for Closed Loop

    > 14.7 is leaner
    < 14.7 is fatter

    LAMBSE is not your fuel ratio

    LAMBSE is the value that the pcm is commanding at any given moment

    KAMRF is a fuel trim OR your adaptive strategy at work is how I see it

    KAMRF value of 1.00 is considered to be the standard for Closed Loop

    < 1.00 means the adaptive is pulling fuel
    > 1.00 means the adaptive is adding fuel

    Now that you understand how it works ;)

    Lets see if the values you've seen in your dlogs make sense :D

    Your LAMBSE values are fat
    thus
    Your KAMRF values show the adaptive is pulling fuel to compensate

    Does this not make sense ... that is if you're a 94-95 pcm :rlaugh:

    OK ... OK ... I'm getting a bit ahead of things here

    Trust me ... if you focus on the data events where you see the K's
    active ... you are gonna see the LAMBSE commanding fat values

    I'd have no comment on the 0 or 1 thing as I don't run that software
    but
    Inactive K's are usually and indication of Open Loop

    Let me know if I made things better or worse for you :scratch:

    Grady
  3. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    It really seems that I am running on the rich side. I was looking through my datalog and it looks like I get CL for a few seconds.(unless the CL is not datalogging right) That is, if 1 = Cl. I guess that could make my run richer. :nonono:

    I posted something about CL on eectuning.
  4. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    I saw your dlog on the .org site and was gonna take a quick look

    Can you put up the REAL file :)

    I usually just look at a dlog in its raw data form when I wanna get a quick
    big picture of things ;)

    Grady
  5. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    I dataloged with BE and that is how it saved it.

    If you have eec anaylzer you can watch it like calcon shows it.
  6. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Now I understand :D

    Thanks for the info :nice:

    I bet Wes or one of the other guys who have later versions of software
    will get involved and lend a helping hand.

    Grady
  7. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    I bet your "Fuel - Injector Offset vs Battery Voltage" is throwing you off some, it looks like the stock J4J1 settings - is that what your tune is based off of?

    Make another datalog with the params below. Get some good cruise, stop, start and into the throttle a bit (WOT not necessary):
    • LOAD
    • VBAT
    • PW2
    • PW1
    • KAMRF2
    • KAMRF1
    • LAMBSE2
    • LAMBSE1
    • MAF
    • RPM
    • SPARK
    • TP
    • MPH
    • ISCDC
    • STATUS1
    • AFR/EVP (if you have it)

    EDIT: Start the datalog a couple minutes after you have started the car.
  8. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    How confident are you that the MAF curve is right?

    You are bottoming out your KAMRF's, something looks pretty far off.

    Wes
  9. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    not confident at all :notnice: I can't figure out this curve. When I used it with calcon I was lean at wot, so I tried with ea. Now it looks totally wrong at the lower values.

    See if you can see the attached and look at it. I think I am going back to calcons and just tweak the top part



    http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=78

    I am thinking the curve is a big problem
  10. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    I changed my curve back to the caledit one, but 15% in the upper parts.

    Did some logging, but I did not log all the right things. My wideband looked right sort of (10.4-12.0 WOT and 14.0-15.3 at cruise), but my kams are getting up 1.01x

    http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=79

    that is a .db file

    edit: just calculated the maf with EA, it it almost looks right :)
  11. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    Post up the MAF transfer or tune with the MAF transfer in it (BIN format if you can).

    Looks like you just cleared the KAM and the car was relearning?

    Do some more driving and then take another datalog. This log does look closer than the other, however. :nice:

    Wes
  12. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    Be sure you are filtering your data in EA when you log from CalCon - I filter RPM (0-7000)

    Wes
  13. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    Here is the curve
    http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=80

    I don't have the bin on this computer.

    I will have to try messing with the filter part on EA


    yea, I had just cleared them. I did not think about it relearning.
  14. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    NM, I messed up my MAF curve
  15. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    I richened my curve 2% all the way. On the newest datalog I noticed. During light throttle my lambse is 11.7-14.0 and kam is almost always above 1. But up to 1.09.

    When I am about .5 throttle my lambse will be 11.2-13.65 kam 1.


    i still feel like an idiot trying to understand all this but....


    If my lambse is 11.7-14.0, and my kam is above 1(OL), that means the computer is sensing the car is lean. Is that correct?


    My half throttle looks like its lean and rich.

    I have not looked at my wideband, but last time at light throttle it was all over the place. Mostly rich.

    log
    http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=84

    here is my new curve
    http://eectuning.org/node.php?rid=85


    Should I have leaned the curve, not richen it?
  16. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    The car thinks it is running lean.

    The KAMRF is the adjustment it has learned (so 1.05 would be giving you the programmed fuel multiplied by 1.05 -- or 5% more).

    The LAMBSE is the AFR that the car is actively trying to hit at that moment. When your tune is correct, the wideband and the LAMBSE will be very close to agreeing all the time.

    Wes
  17. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    You will see lambse active during CL and OL

    The K's only come into play during CL

    If you are wanting to work on the K's, it would not be of benefit to work with the
    upper end of the maf curve as that is OL territory

    Also ... You should not see the K's being active at throttle positions of 1/2 or more
    as the load it too great to sustain CL at that much opening

    I usually slip from CL to OL at throttle positions of 1/4 to 1/3 maximum

    Here is where I think your frustration may be all about :)

    I feel you are not quite grasping the basic functions of adaptive strategy which is
    all about CL and how the K's are an indicator of being rich or lean.

    You can work with the maf curve or the inj slopes but I feel the inj slopes are
    the best way

    I really never paid much attention to lambse when working with dialing in my
    CL tune. I never paid all that much attention to what my wide band was doing
    when working with my CL tune.

    In a nutshell ... you dial in your CL tune as such

    1) You load in your maf curve
    2) Then you work with the inj slopes, offsets, and break point

    You work with 1 then 2 ... but not 1 AND 2
    If you do 1 AND 2 at the same time you are going to go in circles :crazy:

    The objective here is to bring back in line the adaptive strategy to the point it
    does not have to make large adjustments.

    You want the pcm's adaptive strategy to maintain 14.7 at all conditions during
    CL. It will have to make adjustments to do that but you tune to were it makes
    small changes.

    The pcm controls CL ... not you or not some table ... Make Sense

    1.00 K's are considered not fat or lean
    < 1.00 and the K's are pulling fuel cause you are too fat
    > 1.00 and the K's are adding fuel cause you are too lean

    BUT ... UNDERSTAND THIS

    You are not controlling this ... You want the pcm to do it

    The whole CL tune thing is about small throttle openings and very light loads
    and
    Driving conditions that don't meet those conditions are all about OL
    and
    Then the adaptive falls away and the tables come into play
    and
    Yes ... this is the part of the tune you do want to control

    Have I made things more clear or I did just add to the confusion

    Hey ... this stuff can be a bit mind blowing from time to time :rlaugh:

    Grady
  18. Stanger007

    Stanger007 Founding Member

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    Brett, I emailed you a new MAF curve based off of your datalog and the MAF you posted.

    I forget, did you say if you had the flow sheet for the MAF you are using?

    Wes
  19. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    got the curve. and I am trying to take in all that information above. I will have to read into all the injector stuff. Never really looked at it before.


    and i have the flow sheet
  20. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    I would follow this path of action :)

    Load in the curve from the sheet
    then
    Move over to working with inj values

    Use info from past threads in this forum and the notes in EA to work with
    inj slopes
    inj offsets
    breakpoint
    min pulse width if you run large inj's

    After you get things fairly stable you may see a point of two that is a bit fat
    or lean and you can tweec the maf curve at those points but most have
    found the amount of change needed to be very small.

    It can take a while to dial in your CL tune using this method :(
    but
    It will be the best way as it will produce the most stable results ;)

    Grady

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