Larocca's doesn't know how to fix my 93. WTF????

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by slvr302, Aug 15, 2003.


  1. Ranchero5.0

    Ranchero5.0 The Voice of Reason

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    Slvr, seems interesting that they want it to run 'slightly' rich during normal running with the blower. I don't really agree with that or their statement that the o2's will foul on a blower car during normal running. Raises a BS flag pretty quick.

    In my opinion with the EPEC the engine should run normally asperated until it goes under boost and should run closed loop through the o2's as lean as it needs to keep the emmisions down. Then under boost the fuel pressure should be raised 1-1 to keep the flow rates the same and the WOT setting richer to compensate for the boost. With my setup as old school as it is, the FMU boosts the fuel pressure to compensate for boost and you use different plates and bleeders to 'calibrate' it. The downside is it'll go lean for a split second as you shift because the lack of boost on the shift leaves the FMU reduce pressure. The upside is the injectors are smaller so the MAF calibration has an easier time controlling the mapping. Crap, the '03 cobra's are clean and make gobs of power with o2's without fouling. I understand they monitor the MAP to compensate for boost, a better and truer method vs a FMU or guesswork with the EPEC.

    Seems that in your case you need it to run clean and then make decent power, not make lots of power and not run clean. By not running the o2's just like they say, it's not going to run as clean with weather or temperature changes. If it doesn't run clean or is tuned to run rich all the time then you are just ****ing into the wind and your overheating cats won't go away. You might as well rip the EFI off and put a carb and carb bonnet on and blow boost through that.

    Jamie
  2. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    BComenos: The MAF and 42# injectors are new. The EPEC could tune around to compensate for any calibration that may be off. The calibration was fine as they saw it was OK when datalogging.
    Who said I was bringing Larocca used stuff to work with???
    The leakdown and compression test proved to be tolerable yet not perfect. They say that the heads may have a problem with the combustion chamber (allowing the air/fuel not to burn completely).
    Eventhough Laroccas has had my car for a good while (they aren't working on it everyday), they have had excellent customer sevice under the circumstances. Believe me, they have been great to deal with. Otherwise I would have already taken my car away a long time ago.
    What makes you think I would start to argue with them??? If I did have reason to argue with them about something, their reputation as being a "top shop", as you put it, would have no bearing in the matter. I AM BY NO MEANS PUTTING YOU RESPONSE DOWN. I DO APPRECIATE IT. Just want some clarification on it.

    Ranchero5.0: I thought the same thing about wanting a blower car to run richer at cruise. (they didn't mean they wanted it to run a little richer at idle..just that with no O2s, it will). But cruise they want it to be a little richer. (don't know why)
    I also agree with you on wanting the car to run rich only under boost while close to stoich. at idle and cruise.
    I do understand your point with the 03 Cobra. I also referenced the Cobra as not having any air injection going to the converters so why should my 93 need it??
    I spoke to them today and they were finishing up putting on my stock converters and air pump. They really don't think this is going to fix my issue though but they want to see.

    Larocca has stated once again to me that they set up plenty of cars just like mine (with coverters, no chip, no smog, no O2s, and even bigger cams than mine) without an issue at all. I AM THE FIRST. They think something is going on in the combustion chamber.
    Larocca has much more experience with mustangs (especially foxbody) than I do and most likely anyone responding to this post. The are a very reputable shop. They may know many little tricks or different things to do to get a stang to run its best and make power. That's not to say they can't make a mistake and its also not to say I am going to blindly go with whatever they say. Just that they may do some things that don't make sense to some of us (ie. no O2s). I guess they are trying their best to fix me up otherwise I think they would have gotten me out of there already....fixed or not.
  3. BComenos

    BComenos Founding Member

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    I just thought the combo was used. It is a long thread so I may have missed it. I am not at all saying that you are losing your cool. I am just trying to help you keep it. I know what it is like when a car is sucking the fun out of the whole thing. Keep up the positive attitude.
    :flag:
    So if the heads have issues with the way they where ported or whatever then rip one off and have them check it out for you. To save money maybe you rip a head off at there place and have them visually inspect it and have them reinstall it.
    again wouldn't a check of the spark plugs help answer any combustion issues.
    what if when the injectors where going in they where damaged and now they do not spray they just dump fuel. My car had that with a set of 19lb injectors that where installed incorrectly. Check that out. If a two injectors where doing that it will run okay but the emissions and performance would suffer. Believe me my car ran great until I saw the injectors come out of the holes.
  4. Ranchero5.0

    Ranchero5.0 The Voice of Reason

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    Really weird poop going on with your combo. One thing I noticed before, but didn't comment on it is why do they think your combo is down on power? How much boost are you making and how do the torque curves look? Should be pretty linear through the revs, if not may show some mismatching in parts or other issues... funny thing I just though of is wonder if it has too low of a compression for the cam and is just really inefficient at low rpms. Odd thought.

    I put a set of 64cc Windsor Sr's on my 351 in place of the hogged out 58cc 289 heads I had and the thing just plain ran like crap, even under 15psi of turbo boost. After a few days it really went down hill and after a year of aggrevation found one of the rockers had walked off the valve and the cam ate the distributor gear, but the combo didn't like those heads even when new. Don't know if it just liked the tighter ports of the 289 heads or if it was combustion chamber related or what.

    Laroccas will figure it out, just be patient.

    Jamie
  5. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    At this point, I feel I have no choice but to put all of my trust with Larocca. This problem has worn me down a great deal.

    BComenos: The only used parts were in the beginning when n/a which were injectors, maf, and short block (13,000 miles). Larocca didn't work with any of this except for the block of course.
    They had one head off (the one that leaked down a little too much) and said the valve job and head work wasn't the best.
    I will ask them about the injectors possibly leaking.

    Ranchero5.0: I really don't know why my combo was down on power after the two cam swaps (if thats what you are referring to). They were saying it was down based on the numbers I was making prior to the changing cams. My curves look fine. I would post my dyno sheet but not at home right now.
    As far as compression goes, the guy that built the motor said my compression should be around 9:1 after the heads being milled .040 from 64cc to 58cc. I don't know how accurate that info is being that I never had anyone else check it. But if my heads come off I will definitely have it checked for sure.
    I was seeing 15 psi at 6100 rpms. Don't know if that has changed at all now.
    I don't mind spending the money on the Edelbrock heads..I think they may be a better head than the Roush....but funds are very tight now...and we aren't even sure that heads will fix it.
    One thing Larocca has told me was that my power when n/a was like **** at 250rwhp and 280rwtq. They said that most H,C,I combos will make close to 300 rwhp. I told them I attributed my numbers to having such a big head and the little 306 just isn't enough displacement for them. They said that the Edelbrock Victor Jrs. are bigger than my Roush 200 and they make close to the 300 rwhp on a 302/306. Just something to think about.
  6. madmiamian

    madmiamian Founding Member

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    Glowing cats

    I had a friends cats glow on him and it turned out he had a vacum leak on an improperly seated upper intake. Witch brings me to the Milling of the Roush heads. Not only does this seam to much for blower use, but
    also this will compromise the seat between your lower intake and the heads. Try to check for a vacum leak between the lower and the heads
    I believe this can be done with carb cleaner sprayed in the sealing areas
    and if the seal is wrong the idle will bounce. Hey its cheap and you don't need to pay someone to do it. Probly cost $5.00 for a can of carb cleaner.

    ps. Kind of quick to point to a cam that sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

    Good Luck !
  7. BComenos

    BComenos Founding Member

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    check the injectors and with the head questions there is caluculations that you can do to get to an appoximate compressions ratio. at 58cc the number can be pretty closely figured out. The cc's of the valve reliefs will be your only unknown.
    mine are at 56cc I think and my pistons have stock style reliefs and my compression is in the 9.75/9.8 range. The calculations can be found on hardcore50 website under performance calculators.
  8. whitehorseupnorth

    whitehorseupnorth SSoM President Founding Member

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    Everyone is so fixed on the smog pump!?!? This may sound stupid, but try putting the EGR back on. Recuirculating exhuast gases back into the cylinders cools the exhaust and among other things. It probably won't fix it, but it wouldn't hurt. Good luck!!
  9. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    madmiamian: The heads were milled to get my compression close to 9:1. My lower intake was milled the same so it is seating properly.

    BComenos: My pistons have big valve reliefs. Without knowing that info I can't find my compression ratio.

    whitehorseupnorth: EGR valve was there and new when n/a. Putting it back will not fix my problem. If its not going to fix the issue I am not concerned with it. EGR does not function at idle. My converters glow at idle.
  10. madmiamian

    madmiamian Founding Member

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    vacum leak

    Ok .. good but that doesn't mean you are safe from a vacum leak. Check it Like I said its cheap and a safe way to make sure thats not the prob. don't overlook the little things..

    Ralph
    Good Luck.
  11. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    People would say my two open breathers are like a vacuum leak being that I still have the pcv functional. They allow unmetered air into the intake
  12. Ranchero5.0

    Ranchero5.0 The Voice of Reason

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    Funny about the breathers... When I first rebuilt the '93 three Xmasses ago I had plugged the breather port on the valve covers because it was blowing a quart of oil out every 150 miles. I had rigged a coolant overflow from my '69 stang so that the PVC oil/vapor went there and then the PVC sucked the air back to the motor so I could recycle the oil at the end of each day. (150 mile round trip to work in a day with only two pistons rings intact and two pistons with busted ring lands). Anyway when I put the motor back together I got rid of the extras, but forgot to run a breather line from the oil fill to the blower inlet. The car started fine but quit after a few second of running. Took a few tries before I gave up and undid the oil fill to top off the oil and got a nice vacuum woosh. Popped the cap off and it's run ever since.

    My motor needed that PVC air to idle correctly. Since then I've upgraded to total seal rings and had to mill a bypass gap into the idle air control to make up for the air that it doesn't get through the PVC anymore. The car had some real idle quality issues, liked to surge and shut off. Now it idles fine around 750rpm. I'm also not getting any blowby vapor with these rings.

    BTW, heads, cam, and rings made the car .6 seconds and 9mph faster in the quarter in spite of a 4" taller tire than before. Ran 12.4 @ 114mph on 28 x 9 ET drags last weekend vs 13.0 @ 105.

    Jamie
  13. ArtMan

    ArtMan Founding Member

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    update?

    Hey slvr302,

    Any progress with the engine. Just curious about the outcome and hope you resolved this. You've got a great combination there and it should be on the road, not in the garage. :nice:
  14. oz

    oz Founding Member

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    Those guys at Iarocca's should have told you that YOU CAN NOT RUN SMOG DELETE WITH CATS PEROID! You can leave smog hooked up and delete the cats but not the other way around.
    Either get an off H pipe or replace the ruined cats and hook up the smog pump.... and stay away from that shop - it sounds to me like they love to sell you parts but don't even know the basics.
    sorry, maybe somebody already said this but I ran out of time reading the whole thread.
  15. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    ArtMan: I have ordered assembled Edelbrock heads and waiting for them to come in from Edelbrock. They had to be machined for 7/16" stud.

    oz: The smog pump not being hooked up is not why I have this problem. There are many people running no smog with converters and not having an issue.
  16. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    UPDATE on this matter: I've got an even bigger problem now!!

    I have since changed the heads to Edelbrock Performers with 1.90 intake. After Larocca installed them, they used a pyrometer to verify converter temperature.They let the car idle for a while and got a reading no more than like 350* they say. Prior to the head swap, the pyrometer would get pegged (max. reading is 515*). So from that they said they believe the problem has been taken care of.

    Then they said that my MSD 6AL was having a problem after running for a while. My car would stall and wouldnt start until it was bypassed. My MSD is fairly brand new (only about 6000 miles on it). So this now was holding me back from picking up my car. So I ordered a Crane HI-6R with boost retard based on Larocca's suggestion rather than wait for an MSD warranty repair on the 6AL or getting an MSD 6BTM.

    They then had to set up the timing retard with the Crane ignition.....so back on the dyno. That's when my motor broke!! Something in the bottom end. They say it could be a bearing, rod bolt, or piston. They think it sounds more like I broke a piston because they are hypereutectic. They are now recommending I go with a DSS Pro Bullet shortblock with forged low compression pistons for $2039.

    I am well past my financial limit already!!!!! I called up Rick Anderson from Anderson Ford and he says the only reason a hypereutectic piston would break is due to detonation...which in turn would blame the tuner. He says if the car was being tuned correctly regardless of how much boost or the type of piston, the piston should not break.

    SO GUYS....NOW WHAT??? WHAT TO DO??? WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL OF THIS????
  17. GAU89LXStang

    GAU89LXStang New Member

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    I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but why did you continue to add performance items, without fixing the initial problem(s) first. I think that may be your fault. And it sounds like somebody a Laroccas has found a sucker (you), to keep dumping money into performance modifications.

    It broke because the poor thing (your former engine) was already begging for it's life, and you ignored the problem.

    I am sure that if you decide to buy a new short block, from their recommended supplier, and let them do all the work, it will run great. Especially with you forking out all of that money for them to do it.

    Also have them tear the engine down to determine what exactly failed. If they won't do it, do it yourself, or take it to another shop who will. You don't want to buy another engine an have it grenade on you too.

    Mo' Town
  18. slvr302

    slvr302 Founding Member

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    I hope you read the entire post. If not, you will need to before replying. I know its alot to to read and absorb.
    If you have, I am unclear as to what you mean by adding performance items without fixing the initial problem. The initial problem was glowing converters.

    Let me give you the rundown in very short form. Converters were glowing. Larocca verified a/f and all components to be in check. They thought the camshaft may not have been degreed correctly so since they were going in there, I opted to have the cam replaced with a "blower grind". That didn't fix the converter issue. They then suggested there was something "screwy" going on in the combustion chamber thus not allowing a complete burn of fuel. They would replace the heads as the next logical step to reolve the issue. I did this. They say the converter issue is 100% taken care of. Now the car broke and the final dyno pulls.

    BTW, DSS is not their supplier. They simply recommended them due to there past experience with DSS shortblocks. I am going to tear the motor down or have it done...Not by Larocca though.
  19. sidthing

    sidthing New Member

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    First off maybe you should stop being a punk and fix your own car. You people need to stop paying people stupid amounts of money to have your car fixed for you. Maybe you should get off your lazy American buttocks, and buy some tools and figure your car out in your garage. Buy a tool and use it. Your probably the same guy I'll see at a car show bragging about your car you didnt even touch except to drive. LaRocca's is laughing at you for spending a grand for not even fixing the problem. I wouldnt have paid them but you did, but I guess you have money to burn. Do me a favor and trade in your car for a Civic. Anyone who runs 42lb injectors and no O2 sensors and complains about bad gas mileage and burning cats should be shot for being an idiot. Have a nice day.
  20. Pop-Pops-Pony

    Pop-Pops-Pony Founding Member

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    Dear god.......

    After all this...

    Run, don't walk, away from Larocca's...I don't know what to think about them...
    I'm begining to believe if they "were" a top shop all this might not have happened...Everything they suggested didn't work...By now you have damn near every part they recommened in the motor and the motor blows...Still makes me wonder what was going on in the motor while they were dicking around...

    This is :bs:

    If you aren't going to do the work yourself, find another shop...

    That's all I can say....Sorry.....

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