Looking For Some Direction: Using 5.0 In A 59 Edsel Please Help

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by toolbox samurai, Jun 16, 2013.


  1. toolbox samurai

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    hello everyone this is my first post to this site..

    I am currently working on building a "frank-en-car" the frame/body is a 59 Edsel villager (6 passenger) and I am currently installing a 5.0 out of an 88 cougar (believe it is an "F" motor) (specs look pretty bad but its what i was given to work with)

    I was wondering if anyone knew the differences between the 88 cougar motor and the 86 GT motor (specs are much better) and also was wondering if anyone knew what was all involved in deleting the air pump and that nasty tube that runs across the back of the heads. we are trying to keep the fuel injection but don't want any of the extra bulky emissions crap. we are not trying to build a super rod but what something respectable and reliable.

    so far: we are kinda going for a surfer wagon theme, trying to keep the patina (not sure if that's spelled right but u get the idea) I am personally hoping for 250 hp/300 ft/lbs. any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated

    ---chassis/body:
    stripped/painted
    3" drop spindles front
    new ball joints
    3" lowering blocks and flipped the shackles (rear)
    new leaf spring bushings
    custom motor mounts
    custom trans cross member
    all new steering components
    power steering conversion
    4 wheel disk brake conversion
    new master cylinder/ brake booster
    fresh interior
    almost all new glass
    '59 surf board

    ---motor/trans
    headman headers
    new timing cover and gasket
    new water pump
    new thermostat and housing
    new front sump oil pan and pickup tube (some modification required lol)
    ford racing valve covers
    new MSD cap and rotor
    new 8.8 mm ford racing plug wires
    new spark plugs (of course)

    still planning on inline fuel pump (capable of 110 psi but dumbed down to 55) cold air intake, mass air flow, and Flowmaster american thunder series exhaust and new wheels and tires

    hope that you guys can give me some ideas on how to get rid of the evap/egr BS and some cheap ideas to get as much power as possible
    IMG_20130606_145452_490.jpg
    IMG_20130614_163321_422.jpg IMG_20130613_171803_072.jpg
    IMG_20130611_124416_841.jpg
     
    #1
  2. MikeH686

    MikeH686 Mine is only two inches though.

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    I dig the color and you keeping the rustic look as far as the cougar and gt block I couldn't remember but at some point ford made the 5.0 a flat tappet can block and after a time they changed it to a roller cam but I think that was before either of those two years someone here can chime in here for you as far as emissions prepare to get bombarded with why are you doing this and blah blah blah and if it works leave it there but I would take it off whether or not it worked I hate how they look but my car was already deleted so I can't help you there
     
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  3. 2000xp8

    2000xp8 Mustang Master

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    Ford sells plugs for the back of the heads.
    Depending on the accessory setup, you just need a shorter belt to bypass the air pump
     
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  4. newskool

    newskool Active Member

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    That's goning to be one sexy wagon.
     
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  5. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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  6. toolbox samurai

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    ok so I am running into a few more complications mainly wiring related. I am trying to get the wiring to look as good as possible unfortunatly my wiring diagram SUCKS so if anyone would have a really good wiring diagram for an 86-88 stang it would be very helpful. we are planning to install (and pin the ECU) mass air. Does anyone know what is nessesary to keep this fuel injection system working?
     
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  7. 7991LXnSHO

    7991LXnSHO Well-Known Member

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    The head smog plugs are avail. at Jegs (or summit), but on the back of the head, bolts are cheaper, easier to remove and not ugly. Wiring- The best pin outs diagrams, if you do not like the ones on this site, are in chapter 12 of the Haynes manual. You will want to make a copy, laminate it then I bet use dry erase marker on it. It looks like there are 4 fuse able links that are on the hot side, two constant, one in run and one in start or run. On the other end, the fuel pump relay circuit and inertial fuel shut off warrant special attention too. I hope the diagram has all the sensors under the hood. Now I have spent some time getting up to the 80's/90's car wise, it looks about complete.
     
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  8. 7991LXnSHO

    7991LXnSHO Well-Known Member

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    The FAQ section has a lot of info including belt length without certain accessories. I measured the old way before finding the discussion.
     
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  9. toolbox samurai

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    how hard is it to delete or skip the inertial switch?
     
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  10. MikeH686

    MikeH686 Mine is only two inches though.

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    Look on faxon auto literature.com that will get you a great diagram
     
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  11. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    [​IMG]

    Fuel Pump Troubleshooting for 87-90 Mustangs

    Revised 10-Aug-2012 to update fuel pump run time on initial startup

    Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 1-3 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the upper LH corner to ground.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If the fuse links are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. A tire pressure gauge can also be used if you have one - look for 37-40 PSI. Beware of fire hazard when you do this.

    No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) Tripped inertia switch – press reset button on the inertia switch. The hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch

    B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most Mustangs built before 92. It is located under the MAF on 92 and 93 cars. Be careful not to confuse it with the A/C WOT cutoff relay which is in the same area. See the diagram to help identify the fuel pump relay wiring colors. Be sure to closely check the condition of the relay, wiring & socket for corrosion and damage.
    C.) Clogged fuel filter
    D.) Failed fuel pump
    E.) Blown fuse link in wiring harness.
    F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove vacuum line from regulator and inspect
    for fuel escaping while pump is running.

    The electrical circuit for the fuel pump has two paths, a control path and a power
    path.

    The control path consists of the inertia switch, the computer, and the fuel pump relay coil. It turns the fuel pump relay on or off under computer control. The switched power (red wire) from the ECC relay goes to the inertia switch (red/black wire) then from the inertia switch to the relay coil and then from the relay coil to the computer (tan/ Lt green wire). The computer provides the ground path to complete the circuit. This ground causes the relay coil to energize and close the contacts for the power path. Keep in mind that you can have voltage to all the right places, but the computer must provide a ground. If there is no ground, the relay will not close the power contacts.

    The power path picks up from a fuse link near the starter relay. Fuse links are like fuses, except they are pieces of wire and are made right into the wiring harness. The feed wire from the fuse link (orange/ light blue wire) goes to the fuel pump relay contacts. When the contacts close because the relay energizes, the power flows through the contacts to the fuel pump (light pink/black wire). Notice that pin 19 on the computer is the monitor to make sure the pump has power. The fuel pump has a black wire that supplies the ground to complete the circuit.

    Remember that the computer does not source any power to actuators, relays or injectors, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.

    [​IMG]

    Now that you have the theory of how it works, it’s time to go digging.

    All voltage reading are made with one voltmeter lead connected to the metal car body unless otherwise specified

    Check for 12 volts at the red wire on the inertia switch. No 12 volts at the inertia switch, the ignition switch is turned off or faulty or there is no power to the ECC (computer ) power relay. To be sure look for good 12 volts on the red wire on any fuel injector:
    good 12 volts mean the ECC relay is working. No 12 volts and the ECC wiring is at fault.
    Look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition coil: no 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty, or the fuse link in the ignition power wire has blown. No 12 volts here and the ECC relay won’t close and provide power to the inertia switch. Check the Red/black wire on the inertia switch, it should have 12 volts. No 12 volts there, either the inertia switch is open or has no power to it. Check both sides of the inertia switch: there should be power on the Red wire and Red/Black wire. Power on the Red wire and not on the Red/Black wire means the inertia switch is open. Push the button on the side of it to reset it, and then recheck. Good 12 volts on one side and not on the other means the inertia switch has failed.

    Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt. Blue wire (power source for fuel pump relay). No voltage or low voltage, bad fuse link, bad wiring, bad ignition switch or ignition switch wiring or connections. There is a mystery connector somewhere under the driver’s side kick panel, between the fuel pump relay and the fuse link.

    Turn on the key and jumper the fuel pump test connector to ground as previously described. Look for 12 volts at the Light Pink/Black wire (relay controlled power for the fuel pump). No voltage there means that the relay has failed, or there is a broken wire in the relay control circuit.

    Pump wiring: Anytime the ignition switch is in the Run position and the test point is jumpered to ground, there should be at least 12 volts present on the black/pink wire. With power off, check the pump ground: you should see less than 1 ohm between the black wire and chassis ground.

    [​IMG]

    The yellow wire is the fuel tank sender to the fuel quantity gage. The two black wires are grounds. One ground is for the fuel tank sender and the other is the fuel pump. The ground for the fuel pump may be larger gauge wire that the fuel tank sender ground wire.

    Make sure that the power is off the circuit before making any resistance checks. If the circuit is powered up, your resistance measurements will be inaccurate.

    You should see less than 1 Ohm between the black wire(s) and ground. To get some idea of what a good reading is, short the two meter leads together and observe the reading. It should only be slightly higher when you measure the black wire to ground resistance.

    The Tan/Lt Green wire provides a ground path for the relay power. With the test connector jumpered to ground, there should be less than .75 volts. Use a test lamp with one side connected to battery power and the other side to the Tan/Lt Green wire. The test light should glow brightly. No glow and you have a broken wire or bad connection between the test connector and the relay. To test the wiring from the computer, remove the passenger side kick panel and disconnect the computer connector. It has a 10 MM bolt that holds it in place. With the test lamp connected to power, jumper pin 22 to ground and the test lamp should glow. No glow and the wiring between the computer and the fuel pump relay is bad.

    Computer: If you got this far and everything else checked out good, the computer is suspect. Remove the test jumper from the ECC test connector located under the hood. Probe computer pin 22 with a safety pin and ground it to chassis. Make sure the computer and everything else is connected. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position and observe the fuel pressure. The pump should run at full pressure.
    If it doesn't, the wiring between pin 22 on the computer and the fuel pump relay is bad.
    If it does run at full pressure, the computer may have failed.

    Keep in mind that the computer only runs the fuel pump for about 2-3 seconds when you turn the key to the Run position. This can sometimes fool you into thinking the computer has died. Connect one lead of the test light to power and the other lead to computer pin 22 with a safety pin. With the ignition switch Off, jumper the computer into self test mode like you are going to dump the codes. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position. The light will flicker when the computer does the self test routine. A flickering light is a good computer. No flickering light is a bad computer.
    Remove the test jumper from the ECC test connector located under the hood.

    Fuel pump runs continuously: The fuel pump relay contacts are stuck together or the Tan/Lt Green wire has shorted to ground. In extreme ghetto cases, the pump relay may have been bypassed. Remove the fuel pump relay from its socket. Then disconnect the computer and use an ohmmeter to check out the resistance between the Tan/Lt Green wire and ground. You should see more than 10 K Ohms (10,000 ohms) or an infinite open circuit. Be sure that the test connector isn’t jumpered to ground.
    If the wiring checks out good, then the computer is the likely culprit.

    Prior to replacing the computer, check the computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery. It is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire. You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness

    If all of the checks have worked OK to this point, then the computer is bad. The computers are very reliable and not prone to failure unless there has been significant electrical trauma to the car. Things like lightning strikes and putting the battery in backwards or connecting jumper cables backwards are about the only thing that kills the computer.

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) &
    Stang&2Birds (website host)

    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
     
    #11
  12. 7991LXnSHO

    7991LXnSHO Well-Known Member

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    Please do not bypass or delete the inertia switch. It is little switch with a BIG safety feature. If someone runs into you, it shuts off the 40 psi fuel from spraying on hot headers and all over. After you make sure the lines are OK, it is just a little push to reset it. It would be easy to eliminate, but not safe. Just say no.
     
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  13. toolbox samurai

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    thank you all for your information and advise:nice: to be perfectly honest this is my first ground up build and it has posed its fair share of challenges:bang: it has been since high school (in my early 30s now) since I worked on fords (other than the basics) so some of the details have slipped away.. if I had it all to do over again I def would not have used this motor we got (out of an 88 cougar( POS is rated at 165 hp :notnice:) but am hoping by the end of this build we will be able to be somewhere in the 250 range)) I will def be posting more pics as it goes along and according to the boss it will be on a Barrett Jackson auction hopefully August or Sept. also does anyone know any good fast cheap HP adders? other than cold air and exhaust? about how much it adds? and also if an H pipe or an X pipe is beneficial for this application?
     
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  14. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    On a budget? do the junkyard upgrade...

    94-95 Mustang GT MAF - $40-$100. It is 70 MM instead of the stock 55 MM on regular stangs built prior to 94. It uses a slip on duct on the side that goes to the throttle body and a 4 bolt flange on the other. You need a flange adapter to fit the stock slip on air ducting that goes to the air box. Wiring plugs right in with no changes. *1 *2

    95-97 Ford Explorer intake manifold & throttle body $150-$300. The intake manifold flows 220 CFM +, much better than stock. Throttle body is 65 MM, bigger than the 60 MM on stock stangs. I got a 96 with EGR passages that match the stock setup, so my smog gear works just like factory. You’ll need a 65 MM EGR spacer & new gaskets for $65-$90 so you have a place to mount the EGR & throttle linkage.

    Explorer GT40 or GT 40P cylinder heads. The GT40 heads have 3 bars cast at the end of the head. GT40 's will work with any header setup, they are found on the earlier model Explorers from 95 - 97 I believe. The GT40P's are found on 98-2001 model cars and have 4 bars cast into the end of the cylinder head. They need aftermarket headers designed to clear the angled spark plugs.
    Whatever you GT40 heads get, plan to replace the valve springs replaced with good quality aftermarket springs from someplace like Crane Cams or Competition Cams.

    alternator from 94-95 Mustangs or other Ford. $20-$120. A must have to make the electrical system work like it should or if you have an electric fan. You’ll need a 4 gauge power wire and a 125-135 amp fuse to go with it about $15- $30.

    Lincoln MK VIII electric fan -$40-$160. Free up some HP by not having to drive the stock fan. The 3G alternator upgrade is a must have prerequisite before you do the MK VIII fan. You won’t have enough electrical power if you don’t do the 3G upgrade.


    *1.) Metal flange adapter http://www.kustomz.com/components.html Buy the TR70 for $40. Or spend some time on eBay looking for one that may fit.

    *2.) MAF & sensor interchange
    The 94-95 Mustang 5.0 MAF & sensor is also found on:
    1995-94 Mustang 3.8L F2VF-12B579-A2A,
    1994-92 Crown Victoria 4.6L F2VF-12B579-A2A,
    1995-94 Mustang, Mustang Cobra 5.0L F2VF-12B579-A2A,
    1994-92 Town Car 4.6L F2VF-12B579-A2A,
    1994-92 Grand Marquis 4.6L F2VF-12B579-A2A,
    Evidently the –A1A, -A2A, AA, etc. on the end of the part number is a minor variant that did not change the operating specs. You should be able to ignore it and have everything work good.
     
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  15. Maryland Stang

    Maryland Stang Active Member

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    I really think you should find a 351 to use instead. The Edsel Villager weighs about 3600 pounds give or take. The car is going to be a slug with that 302 in it. The base engine in Villagers was a 361 so that should tell you something.

    If you must use a 302 I'd call Crane or some other cam company and see if they have a truck or RV cam that will lift the torque. You'll need it.
     
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  16. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Keep in mind that there are different firing orders for the standard 5.0 found in most of the passenger cars and the 5.0 HO found in Mustangs and Lincoln Mark VII 's. That will dictate which computer you use to control the fuel injection and ignition. It may also dictate which wiring harness you use as well.
    The camshaft was the item that controlled the firing order, so camshaft and computer must line up together. Almost everything else is interchangeable.

    This doesn’t prove that the block is a HO block. Some trucks evidently use a HO firing order with a low lift cam. However, it will definitely prove that a block can’t be HO because the firing order is wrong.

    Remove the #1 & #3 spark plugs. Put your finger in #1 spark plug hole. Crank the engine over until you feel compression on #1 cylinder. Slowly turn the engine until the TDC mark and the timing pointer line up. Mark TDC on the balancer with chalk or paint. Put your finger in #3 spark plug hole and crank the engine 90 degrees. You should feel pressure trying to blow past your finger. If you do not feel pressure, repeat the process again. If you feel pressure, it is a HO engine.

    No pressure the second time, remove spark plug #5. Put your finger in #1 spark plug hole. Crank the engine over until you feel compression on #1 cylinder. Put your finger in #5 spark plug hole and crank the engine 90 degrees. If you feel pressure now, the engine is not a HO model, no matter what it says on the engine.

    Using a small carpenter or machinist square to mark the harmonic balancer off into 90 degree sections may be helpful here.

    A 15/16 deep socket & breaker bar or ratchet may be used to turn the engine.

    The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
    Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. toolbox samurai

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    lucky me I have the non HO.. I would change this up if i had the option but I have to build what i was given (this particular Villager had a straight 6 in it) (if I was given the option I would throw a Cummins motor in it! Muhahaha! to be perfectly honest I am not that concerned about performance.. I mean I am but at the same time it is what it is. I was given the option a few weeks ago to trade this "F" motor in for a 305hp HO and when I relayed the info to my boss he wanted to punch me because of the time we already had into this motor. so my hands are kinda tied.. and I am to the point were I must grab all the nickle and dime upgrades that I can. cold air induction, good exhaust, electric fan, remove as much of the emission BS as possible

    I am just looking forward to getting this build finished and moving on to the next. I have learned a few things through out this build 1) check the motor specs before agreeing to a motor I knew what we were getting wasn`t an HO motor but I figured it would be better than 165hp 2) have a good parts list and a bit more foresight ready earlier (this will offset the bosses lag time and will smooth the transitions) 3) probably will not use a 5.0 again 4) rolling chassis with motor and trans mounted before body goes to paint (wasn`t able to mount the motor/trans till we got the body back from paint.

    I am hoping this week I can get the fuel system completed, final wheel tire combo, power steering lines, brake system and make progress on the wiring and cooling system. and get him to make some decisions on the intake (not shiney enough for his taste) and with any luck what so ever maybe even get him to get me the car wiring harness and the vintage air system. I am not trying to be negitive and realize that the post kinda sounds that way.. but its not meant that way. I love my job my boss is awesome and I think this car is kool.. ya all have a nice day and thanks for reading me vent! anyone have any other suggestions on the frame up build process?
     
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  18. toolbox samurai

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    I talked to comp cams this week he suggested i get one of his cams and change up the spark plug on distributer cap to HO firing order? sounded kind of strange to me anyone got any input on that?
     
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  19. Maryland Stang

    Maryland Stang Active Member

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    It's not actually the HO firing order, it's the 351 firing order. He has a 351 cam he wants you to use. The HO used the 351 firing order.
     
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  20. 7991LXnSHO

    7991LXnSHO Well-Known Member

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    The 351 Firing order is the SAME as what ford calls the HO firing order. See jrichker's picture from above. You can do the same with a Ch&&y with a cam ground right and pick up some HP/Torque.

    "The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
    Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

    [​IMG]
     
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