Low Budget Build Off

[70grande]

Hey guys, so me and a friend of mine are having build off. I have a '70 351C 2V Grande and he has a 71 Datsun 240z. Now for some reason he thinks he has a chance, but I wan't to absolutely destroy any dreams he ever had of beating me. I was thinking about upgrading toheaders, elect ignition, and a cam, and possible a new differential; but I'm not sure which ones would be the best. A good friend of mine (who knows A LOT about engines said that and HEI distributor would be better, why is this, I dont understand what makes them better. Also, keep in mind that I have to keep the parts cost under $1000. I was wondering if anyones know of anywhere cheap to buy or has any parts I could use that they would be willing to sell. Thanks everyone.

 

[D.Hearne]

The HEI distributors for Fords are just plain RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!! You'll lose just on that one part. Your buddy will be laughing all the way to the finish line, regardless of whether he's in front or behind. Simple & cheap? Choose any of the drop in modules that fit your distributor, add the coil that matches it. Use Ford Racing's 9mm wires. Autolite plugs. Get a Performer RPM intake, top it with a 670 Holley Street Avenger or their list 80783 650 VS carb. Headers are a must. Keep your cam choice limited to those that work with your compression ratio and stock valvetrain. I don't know that you can do all this and still have money for a locker differential. Or skip the 4 bbl carb and intake and just bolt on a Holley 500 cfm 2 bbl to your stock intake and then invest in gears, tires, a locker diff and headers.(along with the drop in ignition) Bump the timing up to whatever level you can and still run on pump premium.

 

[bnickel]

Hey guys, so me and a friend of mine are having build off. I have a '70 351C 2V Grande and he has a 71 Datsun 240z. Now for some reason he thinks he has a chance, but I wan't to absolutely destroy any dreams he ever had of beating me. I was thinking about upgrading toheaders, elect ignition, and a cam, and possible a new differential; but I'm not sure which ones would be the best. A good friend of mine (who knows A LOT about engines said that and HEI distributor would be better, why is this, I dont understand what makes them better. Also, keep in mind that I have to keep the parts cost under $1000. I was wondering if anyones know of anywhere cheap to buy or has any parts I could use that they would be willing to sell. Thanks everyone.

don't be so quick to dismiss the lowly Z-car, they can be made to haul serious ass for not a lot of dough. or even have a v8 swap done and yes it can be done for under a grand, in which case you don't stand a chance in hell in my friend at least not with a $1000 budget.


i would try to allocate as many used parts as possible, intake & carb, dizzy, rear gears and headers can be found in local wrecking yards, Ebay, craigslist the classifieds here and other websites, etc. the cam should be bought new however.

check out summit or jegs for the cam and look seriously at the house brand cams they can be bought cheap for good cams. also i would stay away from the HEI style distributors too many have had problems with the housing breaking can't remember which brands but probably pro-comp.

i would look for a used stock duraspark dizzy from a 351c, 351m, 400, 429 or 460 and use one of the new MSD Street Fire ignition boxes for the ignition system.


for the intake and carb i would look for a good dual plane intake one ebay, e'brock performer or RPM, weiand and offenhauser both made good intakes as well. if you get lucky and can find a Blue Thunder intake for the 2v heads somewhere i would snap that one up. i would look for a 600, 650 or 670 holley or demon carb a 670 street avenger would be a decent choice. i normally don't recommend holleys but for your budget there aren't a lot of options.

headers can be whatever you find that will fit, honestly.

as for the diff i'm assuming you have a 9" already since iyou have a 351c car, might not be the case if it was a swap though, if that's the case i would look for a used or cheap center section on ebay or wherever with at least 3.25, 3.50 or 3.70 gears depending on how much wighway driving you do, a traction lok would be nice too

 

[70grande]

Seems like I should clarify a little, I already have an edelbrock Air Gap RMP intake, and it has a run down Holley 4180 from a 85 stang on it. I was planning on just rebuilding that, but I have been trying to find a good kit that is built for performance, but Im having a hard time. Also, does anyone want to explain what kind of diff is better for what, I dont do too much highway driving but good milage is always a plus, but then again, smokey tires are way better.

 

[D.Hearne]

The 4180 isn't a performance carb. Ditch it for one that is. The 4180 is a Ford carb wrapped in a Holley throttle body. Don't go deeper on gears that 3.70's. 3.50's will do you with stock sized(diameter) tires. Tire diameter comes into play with the final drive ratio just as much as gears do.

 

[woodsnake]

I think you better make sure of the rules with your friend. Looking at weight to HP ratio, I think the Z car has a very good chance of taking your mustang. If you gear up for the 1/4, you're going to lose a bit of top end daily drive ability.

That having been said, it can be done, as a factory stock Z was a 17 second car.

You've got to be able to do better than that!!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nissan-z-history2.htm

 

[69gmachine]

Even with a 3:00 to 1 peg leg, the Mustang is a high 14 second car (i've done it with a nearly stock 351W and I'm a horrible drag racer).

Skip the cam.

Move the battery to the rear. It's cheap and will aid with weight xfer.

Traction control is a must and will harness the power you're already making. It's pointless to make more power than you can get to the ground now. Go with Cal-Tracs or Comp Sliders. Add a 3:70 traction lock and you're in the low 13s, maybe even the hi 12s depending on your skill and altitude. Next would be sticky rear tires. The biggest drag radials that will fit your rims. If you have any money left, get a better carb.

The rear end upgrade alone is going to blow half your budget. Even if you get lucky and find something cheap on ebay or craig's list, I sure wouldn't trust it to be ready to drop in!

I'm no drag racer though, so take my advice for what it's worth. Free. Still, pretty damn good advice at any price. Feel free to pay if you use it.

 

[bnickel]

ok so you already have an intake, the carb is worthless so you need a carb, headers and gearing at least, cam and a good ignition if you have enough left, if not a simple drop in electronic ignition conversion can be done cheap, i recommend the Accel points eliminator kit which is pretty just a reboxed/lower priced Mallory unilite conversion. i've had the mallory kit in my mustang for about 15 years and i have the Accel kit ready to put into my cougar when i start the resto on it. add a good coil like an Accel suer stock, Mallory or Msd Blaster and you'll have a decent ignition that's way better than points but won't cost you an arm and a leg, the conversion and a good coil can be done for under $100.



ignition conversion

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acce...ryZ33690QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

coils

this one has the benefit of looking every bit like a stock replacement coil and with a little disguise work will look exactly like a stock yellow top coil... i have an older version of this one for the cougar

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acce...ryZ33689QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acce...ryZ33689QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-...ryZ33689QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or you could pay a bit more for an MSD blaster coil

 

[bnickel]

here's a nice deal on a 9" traction lok with whatever gears you want for $600

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD...ryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or just try this ebay search link

http://motors.search.ebay.com/9-inc...bfmtsZ1QQsacatZ6000QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsaveonZ2

 

[Hack]

In my opinion the best way to spend your money is the steepest gears you can tolerate and big sticky back tires. You need to take advantage of the big engine in your car, and spinning the rear tires won't help you beat your friend. Unless your engine is VERY tired I would assume that you are typically traction limited.

If you have money left, and are still having traction problems, Caltracs help a lot with leaf spring windup.

After you get the car to hook at the line that I would go with other improvements such as a free flowing exhaust. You didn't mention the transmission, but a looser converter can help with an auto.

With the stock valves and springs you don't want too much of a cam, but a cam still could be a good investment, depending on if the exhaust and intake are good.

 

[bnickel]

In my opinion the best way to spend your money is the steepest gears you can tolerate and big sticky back tires. You need to take advantage of the big engine in your car, and spinning the rear tires won't help you beat your friend. Unless your engine is VERY tired I would assume that you are typically traction limited.

If you have money left, and are still having traction problems, Caltracs help a lot with leaf spring windup.

After you get the car to hook at the line that I would go with other improvements such as a free flowing exhaust. You didn't mention the transmission, but a looser converter can help with an auto.

With the stock valves and springs you don't want too much of a cam, but a cam still could be a good investment, depending on if the exhaust and intake are good.

he really needs to ditch that 4180, it's an emissions carburetor not a performance carb. even a good used 600 or 650 holley vacuum secondary or 670 street avenger would be better than even the 4180 rebuilt or even brand new. gears won't do much good if the carb can't deliver enough fuel.

i would prioritize it carb, gears, ignition and then headers. for now i'd just throw on some cheapie lakewood slapper bars on it if he has traction issues


here's a cheap rebuilt 600 holley for 169 bucks for instance

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holl...ryZ33550QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this carb, the $600 gearset, the ignition conversion and the coil and there's still money left for headers or a cam

 

[rbohm]

the 351c is a deep breathing animal, even with the 2v heads. the intake you have is fine, the carb bites big time. it is an emissions carb that passes 600cfm of air at best. sell the carb to someone restoring an 85 mustang gt, and buy yourself a good 750cfm carb. i prefer the edelbrock thunder series carb, but the 750 holley or demon carbs do nicely also. i also would do a cheap cam upgrade. get one that works in the 1500-5500 rpm range, give or take a couple rpm. as for the ignition, get a rebuilt duraspark dist from checker or autozone. ask them for one from a 460 powered vehicle, like a 78 lincoln towncar. hook it to the chrysler orange ignition box, its their upgrade over the stock box and works real nice, and use an msd blaster lll coil. i have used that combination in a few cars with nary a problem. if you have enough money, step up to a set of 3.50 gears. if you spend your money wisely you should be able to do all this for $1000.

 

[bnickel]

the 351c is a deep breathing animal, even with the 2v heads. the intake you have is fine, the carb bites big time. it is an emissions carb that passes 600cfm of air at best. sell the carb to someone restoring an 85 mustang gt, and buy yourself a good 750cfm carb. i prefer the edelbrock thunder series carb, but the 750 holley or demon carbs do nicely also. i also would do a cheap cam upgrade. get one that works in the 1500-5500 rpm range, give or take a couple rpm. as for the ignition, get a rebuilt duraspark dist from checker or autozone. ask them for one from a 460 powered vehicle, like a 78 lincoln towncar. hook it to the chrysler orange ignition box, its their upgrade over the stock box and works real nice, and use an msd blaster lll coil. i have used that combination in a few cars with nary a problem. if you have enough money, step up to a set of 3.50 gears. if you spend your money wisely you should be able to do all this for $1000.

i'd still opt for no more than a 650 vacuum secondary myself, unless you really go all out on the rear gears and get a 4.11, then maybe you can use all 750 cfm. just my personal opinion but i tr for the middle of the range rather than low or high end when it comes to carbs. technically you could run a 570 street avenger and do a hell of a lot better than the 4180 you have. a 600 will be a great carb if you still want semi decent mileage out the engine a 750 will suck more gas than a 2 dollar whore at happy hour. just my opinion

 

[Rusty67]

I'm sorry but you are totally effed man. The 71 240z is basically the lightest Z ever produced. If your friend has any brains at all, he will find a junkyard setup with a turbo on it for a few hundred bux, get a mustache bar and put a turbo 280 rear end in there and absolutely stomp all over you.

The power to weight ratio is going to rock you.

The only way you will beat your friend is if he doesn't know enough about modifying a z on the cheap.

Thats why I'll be buy a 70-73 240z some day and stuffing a 351w in it. The power to weight ratio on the thing is absolutely retarded. Throw turbos in the mix and its game over for just about anything that wants a piece. The 240z cars are incredible machines...

You want to beat this guy, you will need to pull out every dirty hot rod trick in the book to make sure you get all the traction in the world.

You have an auto or a manual trans ?

 

[jamison42166]

I was over at a friends bodyshop last fall, they are restomodding one of the 240Z cars and it has a corvette ZO6 V8 stuffed in it with a 6 speed tranny. problem is as busy as they are with insurance work the car will never get done. I cant imagine that much power in that car.

 

[Hack]

All the performance in the world won't help w/o traction, especially stoplight to stoplight.

I can't disagree that it would be good to have a better carb, though. Also, Clevelands are notoriously weak on the exhaust, so headers and good exhaust makes sense to me. Yeah I agree that there are lots of areas to upgrade, I just disagree on the order.

 

[woodsnake]

I agree with a different order as well.
I'd do the ignition, carb, exhaust, then cam and gears. But the bottom line will be traction. A cheap set of slapper bars can help too....

 

[bnickel]

just an FYI and to back what i said earlier and what Rusty just said as well, if your friend is smart he will find a good used slightly hot rodded 350 chevy and turbo 350 trans and mop the floor with your grande, then even double your budget won't help you out at all.

one of my best friends had a 78 280z 2+2 with a hot rodded 350, it had a nice mild cam, edelbrock torker intake, double hump 2.02 heads, 750 holley, hei with accel super coil and some nice block hugger headers with a turbo 350 with one hell of a shift kit. he could stomp on the gas and power brake the car and push the front wheels for a block if he wanted while simultaneously smoking the rear tires to hell. it was an easy low 12 second car.

we took a road trip in it one time from lubbock to amarillo (about 125 miles) and on the trip home we were passing a truck so he floored it and the car kicked down into second and caught the wildest third gear scratch i've ever seen, we were driving half sideways down the highway at 75 mph smoking the tires......that z was a bad little bitch let me tell ya

 

[2nd Mustang]

Are we talking daily driver, weekend warrior or all out drag car?

 

[70grande]

Are we talking daily driver, weekend warrior or all out drag car?

I would call it more of a weekend warrior. I drive it every day, but going fast is WAY more important to me than saving gas.
Thanks for all the input everybody, now I just have to decide who to listen too!
and for the confusion, its a C-4 auto, but its getting rebuilt (under warranty from the first time I had this crappy shop rebuild it) right now.