Mild 302 Build

Discussion in '1965 - 1973 Classic Mustangs -General/Talk-' started by Rmoore45, Nov 26, 2012.


  1. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    Hello fellow forum members, My name is Clayton Moore but my nickname is Ranger.

    I need some help with a 302 build and figured I would pick your brains on some things.

    A guy that comes into where I work gave me a 1992 302 long block (roller block). It has 180,xxx miles and needs a rebuild. I would like to do a mild build on this motor: decent heads, cam, intake, headers, rockers, etc. . Its going to be a carbed motor not FI for simplicity, I don't have a fuel injection system. This is going to be a budget build, if I can't get one thing I'll settle for something else. I'm going to be putting this motor in my '67 mustang coupe currently with a 289 and T-5 which already has all the accessories and also aluminum intake, headers, 4bbl carb, timing cover. I'm going to swap stuff from the 289 over to the 302 when I pull the motor. This is a 5.0 motor so I thought this is where I should post this. Shooting for around 300-325 hp nothing fancy, just a good rebuilt motor that can be a daily driver so I can build a monster motor down the road :nice:

    My plan so far is to reuse the crank, unless its no good or would cost more to machine it than just buying a new one, and buy a rebuild kit from summit. I'll go to a machine shop in my area and have them put in the crank, rods, pistons, cam, and set everything up so I can finish it from there.

    I need to figure out some things so I can be on the looking for deals.

    Cam- I would like a mild roller cam that will work good with a carb. Preferred HO firing order

    Heads- I can buy a set of reman heads and port&polish them for around 600, I would like to find a decent set of heads for around that price. Trying to find deals on a good set of heads. Also do they have to be heads from a roller block? Or can they be any 302 heads?

    Right now I'm just trying to get a game plan for this engine, I haven't done anything yet, I'm just thinking it all out so whenever I start this project I'll know what to do (also gives me time to save $$$)

    Any comments are much appreciated, I'm not an idiot, I'm just looking for suggestions and ideas (possibly ways to save $$)

    Thanks, Ranger
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  2. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    I need some help with a 302 build and figured I would pick your brains on some things.

    A guy that comes into where I work gave me a 1992 302 long block (roller block). It has 180,xxx miles and needs a rebuild. I would like to do a mild build on this motor: decent heads, cam, intake, headers, rockers, etc. . Its going to be a carbed motor not FI for simplicity, I don't have a fuel injection system. This is going to be a budget build, if I can't get one thing I'll settle for something else. I'm going to be putting this motor in my '67 mustang coupe currently with a 289 and T-5 which already has all the accessories and also aluminum intake, headers, 4bbl carb, timing cover. I'm going to swap stuff from the 289 over to the 302 when I pull the motor. Shooting for around 300-325 hp nothing fancy, just a good rebuilt motor that can be a daily driver so I can build a monster motor down the road :nice:

    My plan so far is to reuse the crank, unless its no good or would cost more to machine it than just buying a new one, and buy a rebuild kit from summit. I'll go to a machine shop in my area and have them put in the crank, rods, pistons, cam, and set everything up so I can finish it from there.

    I need to figure out some things so I can be on the looking for deals.

    Cam- I would like a mild roller cam that will work good with a carb. Any suggestions? I'm thinking about a mild comp cam or their new thumpr cam:cool:

    Heads- I can buy a set of reman heads and port&polish them for around 600, I would like to find a decent set of heads for around that price. Trying to find deals on a good set of heads. Also do they have to be heads from a roller block? Or can they be any 302 heads?

    Right now I'm just trying to get a game plan for this engine, I haven't done anything yet, I'm just thinking it all out so whenever I start this project I'll know what to do (also gives me time to save $$$)

    I figured I would make a list of parts that I'm going to get
    Federal Mogul Premium rebuild kit CSMHP800-311 (not exact rebuild kit just reference)
    Cam: Comp Cam 35-420-8
    Comp timing set 2138
    Trickflow lifters 21400004-16
    Trickflow valve springs 2500100 (assuming GT40 heads)
    Push rods: yet to be determined
    Rockers: yet to be determined
    Intake: Weiand Stealth WND-8020
    ARP rod bolts 154-6002
    ARP head bolts 154-3601
    ARP main studs 254-5501
    Melling High volume oil pump M68HV
    Pioneer street harmonic balancer 872008
    Summit front sump oil pan G3534



    Any comments are much appreciated, I'm not an idiot, I'm just looking for suggestions and ideas (possibly ways to save $$)

    Thanks, Ranger
    #2
  3. rbohm

    rbohm Founding Member

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    the first thing you want to do is decide what rpm range this engine will spend about 80% of its time in. since you seem to want a street engine, then your rpm range will be between 1000-5000 rpm. you can fudge this number about 500 rpm either way without issue when selecting components. so select components that work best in this rpm range. start with the cam, there are several that work well, so narrow your choices towards more lift and less duration. i have selected a roller cam that has .480" lift and 260 advertized duration for my 289 for when i get to building the engine. since you have an intake already, you can reuse that one, same with the carb.

    as to heads, you can use any 289/302 head on the market today. i have a set of world products windsor jr heads that i will use on my 289. i selected these heads because they have the 58cc chambers and 1.94/1.50 chevy valves, and use stock type 289 valve springs. they also have 171cc intake ports for good low rpm and mid range flow. you can buy these heads assembled for about $600 each from summit racing, or you can buy them for less than $400 each bare. the nice thing is no need for porting the heads.

    the next thing you want to do is have the block checked over thoroughly for cracks, twisting, etc. once the block is fully machined, you want to have the rotating assembly balanced, dont spend the money on blueprinting its not worth it for a street engine.

    use plenty of assembly lube when putting this motor together, and if you are going to use a flat tappet cam, use a proper cam lube on the lobes and lifter bottoms. a roller cam doesnt need the cam specific lube.

    when you have the block machined, let the machinist know what type of rings you are going to use, my advice is spring for the moly faced rings as they break in very quickly but they need very smooth cylinder walls.

    after getting the block back from the machinist, clean it thoroughly. you want to be able to take a damp white cloth and run it through the cylinders and come out clean. you also want to be very sure the oil galleys are clean as well. you can use the same brushes that are used to clean rifle bores, or get a kit from PAW that has the right size brushes.

    use a bottoming tap to chase the threads in the block to make sure they are clean. and every where you can. step up to ARP fasteners for this engine. they cost a bit more but are well worth the investment, especially for the rod bolts. i will use studs to secure my main caps.
    #3
  4. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    Thanks for the advice rbohm.

    What I'm looking to do is build a 300 hp 302 for daily driving, my mustang is essentially my daily driver.

    I have a lot of things figured out, its just all in my head, when you said arp bolts I was thinking well of course ;).

    For the most part this motor will be running in the 1500-2500 rpm range for cruising around town and on the highway. However I do want a cam that can make power and give me a good idle lope. Still looking at cams, probably going to get a comp cam, maybe not still haven't decided.

    Now that I know I can run any head from any 302 I'll start my search. If I could find a decent pair of Gt-40s or Gt-40Ps then I would be set. I'm trying to save money, I do want a decent head but for decent price.

    This is the rebuild kit I plan on getting, assuming all is well with the engine.
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp800-311
    That's just a guess of what I need as bore and bearing sizes.
    #4
  5. clement

    clement Founding Member

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    check the crank, if it needs to be turned that will effect bearing size. if it doesnt need to be turned leave it alone. make sure you check the bore before you buy pistons. the thing about these small heads is that you have to have a bigger cam to get your desired power. you will have lope like this, but if you get more than about 220*at 50 it will be dog below about 2200. i personally dont care about that type of thing, but some people do. also, porting stock heads is usually not worth the cost to do it right, and if you dont know what you are doing you could easily do more harm than good. a bowl blend/casting flash removal is no big deal. but if you are going to start reshaping and opening up cross section you better have an idea of what you are trying to accomplish. the gt40p is probably your best bet for a real tight budget.
    #5
  6. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    I think I found a cam, or at least I've narrowed it down.

    270HR
    280HR

    Before I do this engine swap I'm going to be putting 3.55 gears in so I'm not sure if I want to get the 270HR or the 280HR. The 270HR says its a good HO replacement, and the 280HR. I'm not set on a COMP cam but I'm just looking at their specs and trying to find something that I'm going to like. I found a cam that has 220/220 duration @.050 and I think that would be fit the bill perfectly.

    Here is the cam

    Only problem is that its for non OEM roller blocks, I wonder if it will still work? Maybe I can find a cam with a similar duration and lift.
    #6
  7. woodsnake

    woodsnake Active Member

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    I just went through a retro fit roller engine build. Actually, I am in the middle of it, and it is on hold for a few months, until I leave NY, and head back to Colorado. I used this cam, for my 69 351W, (now a 357).
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-FORD-3...pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr
    I also used some trick flow heads, to go with it. Not crazy about my learning experience with TF, here, either!
    You can read those trials and tribulations here.
    http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/showthread.php?61568-Trick-Flow-heads
    As to your original question, I would let your rear gear be your guide. I have a performer RPM cam, in my 68/289. It has a T5 and a 3.50 rear gear.
    The car really would like more gear than the 3.50. At least a 3.73, or even a 3.89. As it is, while cruising down the interstate at 70 mph, I have to down shift to 4th to pass somebody, as the lower rpm's are not in the power band of the cam. So if you see some specs that call for "at least" a 3.50 gear, you may be on the high side of what you are looking for.
    #7
  8. clement

    clement Founding Member

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    if it were mine i would look at 35-421-8. i like the 351/ho firing order and the split pattern cam will have a wider powerband and it only has 1 degree of overlap at .050 lift.
    #8
  9. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    Thanks for the help guys and advice guys, I really appreciate it.

    Clement- I too prefer the 351/Ho firing order, I was originally looking for type of cam but nothing was listed for a 5.0/302. So I can assume that a 351 cam will fit in the motor? It also states in the info on the cam you suggested that its for "engines that DID NOT come from the factory with hydraulic roller cams". Can I use that cam since I have a factory roller 302? If it will work then that's the cam I'll go with.

    Woodsnake- Thanks for the info and providing a link to a cam, I am looking at that cam also. Just trying to find something that I'll be happy with, a cam with a noticeable idle but still good for daily driving. Also, still not completley set on 3.55 gears, might go with 3.80s. I think I'll try the 3.55s first, and if its not enough then I'll get the 3.80s. Anything will be better than the 2.79s I have in it right now.

    Thanks Guys, Ranger
    #9
  10. 65-Fstbk

    65-Fstbk Member

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    I am going to be building a very similar package for my 2+2. I have a HO block from an 87GT and will be using older Ford Racing heads M-6049-J302. I have a T5 and will be using 3:55 gears (higher maybe) with the carbed motor. I asked Comp cams what cam would work best for my build and this is what they recommended.

    Cam 35-440-8. Duration @ .050 220/220 Lift is .512/.512 with a 110 LSA.

    #10
  11. clement

    clement Founding Member

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    a 302 and 351 cam are the same except firing order. the 351/5.0 HO FO is preferable to the early 289/302 firing order. call comp and see what the difference is in the cam for a roller conversion. i dont know if it is just a lifter issue or if they are also small base circle. i missed the part about you having a roller block. since you have that i would just run a non conversion cam. if i were gonna run a comp in a roller block with what u have that cam you found would probably be the best choice. i would actually look around and find something else if it were mine.
    #11
  12. horseballz

    horseballz Member

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    As far as rear gears are concerned, it largely depends on which T5 or other overdrive transmission you have. For example: If you have the T5 with .68 5th gear and a 3.35 first gear 3.55 rear gear gears are a just little less than optimum, (although pretty much in the ball park) but if you go to 3.80, first gear will be almost useless, kinda like a granny low. If, on the other hand you have a T5 with .68 or .73 fifth gear and a 2.95 first gear, all would be quite happy.
    HTH,
    Gene
    #12
  13. rbohm

    rbohm Founding Member

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    other than the firing order, the 302 and 351w cams interchange. one thing to keep in mind though is that using the earlier firing order puts the highest load on the number one main bearing, where as using the 351w firing order puts the load on the number two main bearing. so keep that in mind when talking to the machinist, and make sure he understands that proper bearing crush is critical depending on which cam you use. by the way, i too prefer the 351w firing order which is why my retrofit cam is a 351w cam. you can use the retrofit roller cam in a roller block with no issues, just keep in mind that the pushrods you order will need to be a bit longer than the stock roller block pushrods due to the smaller cam base circle. just be sure to double check the rocker arm geometry to avoid any issues. most companies that sell valve train parts will have a pair of adjustable length pushrods so you can set the actual length you need and the order exactly what you want.
    #13
  14. Rmoore45

    Rmoore45 Member

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    As it turns out I have a T-5 with a 3.35 first gear and .68 5th. After doing some calculations I'm still going to go with the 3.55 gears, if I don't like them I can always get some 3.80s.

    For a cam I think I have decided on this cam . Its the 270HR cam designed for HO replacement and it has the 351 firing order, just a note any comp cam with a "35" as the first 2 numbers is a 351/HO firing order cam, found that out through their FAQ section. One more question about the cam through, it's got a .533 lift with stock 1.6 rockers, would I be able to use 1.7 rockers and not have any valve problems. Assuming I'm using GT40 heads.

    In all honesty this is going to be a daily driver but I want a little power just to know its there :cool: Most of the time this engine is going to be running in the 1500-2500 RPM range, but I also want a noticeable idle.

    I've decided on a cam, that's 1 thing scratched off the list. Only about 100 more things to figure out :rolleyes:

    I went to ebay :eek: and started looking for GT40 heads and found these . They are completely rebuilt heads with stock springs and rockers, not a bad deal for $635 shipped to my door. I'm going to see if the seller is willing to remove the rockers and springs, I don't need them because I'm would like to get performance valve springs and roller rockers. We'll see what he says.

    #14
  15. rbohm

    rbohm Founding Member

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    yes you can use the 1.7 rockers, but understand that you are already pushing the limit as far as stock valves springs and coil bind with the stock rockers, and you are pushing the limit with valve to piston clearance also. you need to check the coil bind specs for the valve springs you are going to use, and you need to check the valve to piston clearance as well.
    #15
  16. woodsnake

    woodsnake Active Member

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    You will also have to measure for push rods, while confirming your valve train geometry. I can't stress enough how important that is.
    I'm on my 3rd Edelbrock cam, largely in part for exactly that....Not checking, and double checking!
    Don't get me started....
    #16
  17. 65FBE2

    65FBE2 Member

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    For what it's worth. I had a T5 with the 3:35 first and found it to low even with 3:25 gear. I switched to a T5Z to get the 2:95 first. I like it a lot better. My guess is that with 3:89 rear gear it would be like driving a 3/4 ton truck with granny low gear. You will start out in second most of the time. For reference a K code 289 HP motor would of had a 2:32 first gear. If you have 3:55 rear gear, your first gear would be the same as a original 289hp with 5:12 rear. Or if you had a wide ratio 2:78 first it still will be the same as 4:30 rear. Great for drag racing but to low for a daily driver. That being said, the cam you have picked will need at least 3:55 for hwy to get the rpm about right.
    #17
  18. Smitten65

    Smitten65 Member

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    +1, 65FBE2. I also have the 3.35 first T5 but a 3.40 trac-loc. I would prefer a tad more first gear. I struggled with deciding between 3.25 and 3.40 and maybe should have gone with 3.25. I have 215x60x15 tires, bigger tires would have helped too. The 3.40 is okay and it makes it REAL easy to get it going (read, goes quick!), but my SLR is 11.39, a 2.95 first would bring that down to about 10. I'd prefer to be about 10.75 or so, which a 3.25 would have done and still allowed a good 5th gear RPM on the highway. That said, the 3.40 does give me good RPM's, albeit a little high, and good power at every speed including highway driving so I'm happy enough to leave it alone.
    #18
  19. 65-Fstbk

    65-Fstbk Member

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    My T5 has the 3.35 first. After reading these comments I'm thinking maybe the 3.25's would be better. Hmmmmmm. That would still permit decent launch acceleration wouldn't it?
    #19
  20. Smitten65

    Smitten65 Member

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    Don't be afraid of the 3.40, it just runs out of revs earlier than what I'd like. 3.25 would still provide damn decent SLR of 10.89. To me a 3.55 would be over the edge with my size tires. I don't' have a super built up engine that lives its life happily above 6,000 RPM. 6 K is 38 MPH and 5K is 31. A leisurely 4 K is 25. A 3.25 would raise those speeds by less than 2 MPH, a 3.55 would reduce them by about the same.

    Check this and decide what you would be comfortable with.... I set up the gear ratios for 1st to match the ratios in a toploader (column 2), 3.35 T5 ( col 1) and 2.95 T5 (col 3) so I'd have an idea how they compare.... http://www.car-videos.net/tools/spe...o7=&Redline=6000&Increment=500&B1=Recalculate
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