My Engine is Out of My Car...All of the threads

Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by TicketMeRed05GT, Dec 4, 2004.


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  1. Cobra-Master

    Cobra-Master New Member

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    Well, well... it looks like all this BS you've (Stang2k5) been spouting off about the quality of the 05's being so much better than the SN95's with less problems could be a myth.

    Gee, check this thread out... looks like they are having problems with defective cylinder heads too. Same thing that happened with the Cobras in '03.

    http://www.blueovalnews.com/2004/plants/engines.defective07sept04.htm

    Maybe you were wrong in bashing the SN95's so bad and hyping the quality of the S197? They are all Mustangs and they are going to have problems.
    #81
  2. GusinCA

    GusinCA Founding Member

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    So I guess the old adage about not buying the first year of a new model still holds true?
    #82
  3. UDFlyer

    UDFlyer New Member

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    Don't get a lawyer....thats just going to cost you money you don't need to spend. The lemon law in Ohio is basically the same as it is in WI where I had a lemon a few years ago....with Ford. Driving along with 1,700 miles and my gearbox starts making noise....a constant clicking like a metallic woody woodpecker. So I take it in and they gave me an escort rental (you definitely got a good deal with the Explorer). After I had the rental and they had my car for about a month we started looking at the Lemon laws. For both Ohio and Wisconsin (and many other states) the law is :
    The long and short of it was that since they had possesion of my car (meaning it was out of service by reason of repair) for 30 CUMULATIVE total days (not consecutive so they could have it for fifteen days then twenty days a week after giving it back to me) I was eleigible for a new vehicle through the lemon law. I don't exactly know the entire process in Ohio for getting the new car, but I was told that Ford was obligated to provide me with a new car immediately and that the car was not to be of less value than the one I had previously had. In my case it meant a car with about $2,000 in extra options that my first car did not have and I didn't have to pay for as it was the only option of a vehicle to provide me with quickly.

    Hope that helps
    #83
  4. BlackGT89

    BlackGT89 Member

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    TicketMe, looks like they intend to replace it if they have removed the engine. So maybe that is a good sign. Sorry for the trouble you're having, but hang in there. Maybe something can be learned from your car that will save others from what you've had to go through.
    #84
  5. DBMSTNG

    DBMSTNG I fantasize about it being BIG! Founding Member

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    it looks like you need better info to prove Stang2k5 wrong. according to the link you provided, Ford fixed the supposed problem before being shipped to customers.


    "A Team Mustang source told BlueOvalNews that a stop shipment order means that Ford won't ship GT Mustangs to dealers, but it doesn't mean that Ford will stop building Mustangs - they can still build V6 powered models until problems with the 4.6L engines are corrected. Further, even though Ford officially launched JOB1 of the Mustang today, shipments don't occur immediately. "Somewhere within two weeks after Job #1 we have an OK to ship meeting where all the upper management on the program proclaim the vehicle is OK to ship. . . .launching a new vehicle in a new plant can have its issues. That's just part of what a launch is all about.", said our source."
    #85
  6. Cobra-Master

    Cobra-Master New Member

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    Oh yea right… just like Ford supposedly fixed the cylinder head problem on the 03 Cobras at least 4 times, and Ford dealerships were still replacing cylinder heads all over the place. And, this problem eventually migrated to even some of the 04 Cobra’s.

    Hell, Ford has problems with their NASCAR cylinder heads.

    The point I’m making is Stang2K5 made this glorious pitch about how quality on the 05’s were so much better than the SN95’s, and that simply isn’t true. They were having cylinder head problems BEFORE they shipped the first batch of them.,, trust me, they are blowing their wads to get these things into the showrooms. The cylinder head troubles on the 03 Cobras took about 6 months to start showing up, so get ready. Then, when it happens, you get to hear how you’ve probably abused the car and been out racing it before you get considered for new cylinder heads.

    Look at the guy’s engine and troubles that Ford is putting him through in this entire thread. Go search SVTP and look at some of the 03 Cobra threads where problems were occurring, the ranting and raving about Ford, lawyers, and lemons sounds completely identical to this thread.

    Point is… nothing’s changed on the 05’s with respect to quality…
    #86
  7. crazy_tejano

    crazy_tejano New Member

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    Tennessee lemon law;

    I can't tell if your home of cleveland, tn is a joke, or if there is a cleveland in TN.

    Here is the law: (its long, but clear) Basically, if your car has to be fixed 4 times OR spends a cumulative total of 30 days in the shop for the same problem, the lemon law is invoked.

    FOR EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY

    West's Tennessee Code Annotated Currentness

    Title 55. Motor and Other Vehicles (Refs & Annos)

    Chapter 24. Motor Vehicle Warranties

    Part 2. In General

    § 55-24-201. Definitions


    As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:


    (1) "Consumer" means the purchaser (other than for purposes of resale) or the lessee of a motor vehicle, any person to whom such motor vehicle is transferred during the duration of an express warranty applicable to such motor vehicle, and any other person entitled by the terms of such warranty to enforce the obligations of the warranty. "Consumer" does not include any governmental entity or any business or commercial entity which registers three (3) or more vehicles;



    (2) "Lessee" means any consumer who leases a motor vehicle pursuant to a written lease agreement by which a manufacturer's warranty was issued as a condition of sale or which provides that the lessee is responsible for repairs to such motor vehicle;


    (3)(A) "Motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle as defined in § 55-1-103, which is sold and subject to the registration and certificate of title provisions in chapters 1-6 of this title in the state of Tennessee, or subject to similar registration and certificate of title provisions in another state, and classified as a Class B vehicle according to § 55-4-111. For the purposes of this part, "motor vehicle" does not include motorized bicycles as defined in § 55-8-101, "motor homes" as defined in § 55-1-104, lawnmowers or garden tractors, recreational vehicles or off-road vehicles and vehicles over ten thousand (10,000) pounds gross vehicle weight;


    (B) "Manufacturer" means any person who manufactures or assembles new or unused motor vehicles or, in the case of motor vehicles not manufactured in the United States, the importer of such motor vehicle; and



    (C) "Person" means every natural person, partnership, corporation, association, trust, estate or other legal entity;


    (4) "Substantially impair" means to render a motor vehicle unreliable or unsafe for normal operation or to reduce its resale market value below the average resale value for comparable motor vehicles; and


    (5) "Term of protection" means the term of applicable express warranties or the period of one (1) year following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever comes first; or, in the case of a replacement vehicle provided by a manufacturer to a consumer under this part, one (1) year from the date of delivery to the consumer of the replacement vehicle.



    § 55-24-202. Nonconformities, defects or conditions; corrections


    If a new motor vehicle does not conform to all applicable express warranties and the consumer reports the nonconformity, defect or condition to the manufacturer, its agent of its authorized dealer during the term of protection, the manufacturer, its agent or its authorized dealer shall correct the nonconformity, defect or condition at no charge to the consumer, notwithstanding the fact that such repairs are made after the expiration of such term. Any corrections or attempted corrections undertaken by an authorized dealer under the provisions of this section shall be treated as warranty work and billed by the dealer to the manufacturer in the same manner as other work under warranty is billed.



    § 55-24-203. Replacement of vehicles; refunds


    (a) The manufacturer must replace the motor vehicle with a comparable motor vehicle or accept return of the vehicle from the consumer and refund to the consumer the full purchase price if:


    (1) The nonconformity, defect or condition substantially impairs the motor vehicle; and


    (2) The manufacturer, its agent or authorized dealer is unable to conform the motor vehicle to any applicable express warranty after a reasonable number of attempts.


    (b) For purposes of this section:



    (1) "Collateral charges" means manufacturer-installed or agent-installed items or service charges, credit life and disability insurance charges, sales taxes, title charges, license fees, registration fees, any similar governmental charges and other reasonable expenses incurred for the purchase of the motor vehicle;


    (2) "Comparable motor vehicle" means a new motor vehicle of comparable worth to the same make and model with all options and accessories, with appropriate adjustments being allowed for any model year differences;


    (3) "Full purchase price" means the actual cost paid by the consumer, including all collateral charges, less a reasonable allowance for use; and


    (4)(A) "Reasonable allowance for use" means that amount directly attributable to use by a consumer prior to such consumer's first report of the nonconformity to the manufacturer, agent or dealer and during any subsequent period when the
    vehicle is not out of service by reason of repair, plus a reasonable amount for any damage not attributable to normal wear.


    (B) A reasonable allowance for use shall not exceed one half ( 1/2 ) of the amount allowed per mile by the internal revenue service, as provided by regulation, revenue procedure or revenue ruling promulgated pursuant to § 162 of the Internal Revenue Code, for use of a personal vehicle for business purposes, plus an amount to account for any loss to the fair market value of the vehicle resulting from damage beyond normal wear and tear, unless the damage resulted from nonconformity to an express warranty.


    (c) Refunds shall be made to the consumer, and lienholder, if any, as their interests appear. The provisions of this section shall not affect the interests of a lienholder; unless the lienholder consents to the replacement of the lien with a corresponding lien on the vehicle accepted by the consumer in exchange for the vehicle having a nonconformity, the lienholder shall be paid in full the amount due on the lien, including interest and other charges, before an exchange of automobiles or a refund to the consumer is made.



    (d) In instances where a vehicle which was financed by the manufacturer or its subsidiary or agent is replaced under the provisions of this section, the manufacturer, subsidiary or agent shall not require the consumer to enter into any refinancing agreement which would create any financial obligations upon such consumer beyond those imposed by the original financing agreement.


    (e) It shall be an affirmative defense to any claim under this part:


    (1) That an alleged nonconformity does not substantially impair a motor vehicle; or


    (2) That a nonconformity is the result of abuse, neglect or unauthorized modifications or alterations of a motor vehicle by a consumer.



    § 55-24-204. Leased vehicles; refunds


    (a) In the case of a leased vehicle, refunds will be made to the lessor and lessee as follows: The lessee will receive the lessee cost and the lessor will receive the lease price less the aggregate deposit and rental payments previously paid to the lessor for the leased vehicle.


    (b) For purposes of this section:


    (1) "Lease price" means the aggregate of:


    (A) Lessor's actual purchase cost;

    (B) Freight, if applicable;

    (C) Accessories, if applicable;

    (D) Any fee paid to another to obtain the lease; and

    (E) An amount equal to five percent (5%) of subdivision (b)(1);



    (2) "Lessee cost" means the aggregate deposit and rental payments previously paid to the lessor for the leased vehicle less service fees; and


    (3) "Service fees" means the portion of a lease payment attributable to:


    (A) An amount for earned interest calculated on the rental payments previously paid to the lessor for the leased vehicle at an annual rate equal to two (2) points above the prime rate in effect on the date of the execution of the lease; and

    (B) Any insurance or other costs expended by the lessor for the benefit of the lessee.



    § 55-24-205. Presumptions; extension of time; notice


    (a) It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to conform a motor vehicle to the applicable express warranties, if:


    (1) The same nonconformity has been subject to repair three (3) or more times by the manufacturer or its agents or authorized dealers during the term of protection, but such nonconformity continues to exist; or


    (2) The vehicle is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of thirty (30) or more calendar days during the term of protection.


    (b) The term of protection and such thirty-day period shall be extended by any period of time during which repair services are not available to the consumer because of a war, invasion, strike or fire, flood or other natural disaster.



    (c) It shall be the responsibility of the consumer, or the representative of the consumer, prior to proceeding under the provisions of § 55-24-203, to give written notification by certified mail directly to the manufacturer of the need for the correction or repair of the nonconformity. If the address of the manufacturer is not readily available to the consumer in the owner's manual or manufacturer's warranty received by the consumer at the time of purchase of the motor vehicle, such written notification shall be mailed to an authorized dealer. The authorized dealer shall upon receipt forward such notification to the manufacturer. If, at the time such notice is given, either of the conditions set forth in subsection (a) already exists, the manufacturer shall be given an additional opportunity after receipt of the notification, not to exceed ten (10) days, to correct or repair the nonconformity.



    § 55-24-206. Informal dispute settlement


    (a) If a manufacturer has established or participates in an informal dispute settlement procedure which complies with the provisions of Title 16, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 703, as those provisions read on November 3, 1983, and of this part, and causes the consumer to be notified of the procedure, the provisions of § 55-24-203 concerning refunds or replacement shall not apply to any consumer who has not first resorted to such procedure. The attorney general and reporter shall, upon application, issue a determination whether an informal dispute resolution mechanism qualifies under this section.


    (b)(1) The informal dispute settlement panel shall determine whether the motor vehicle does or does not conform to all applicable express warranties.


    (2) If the motor vehicle does not conform to all applicable express warranties, the informal dispute settlement panel shall then determine whether the
    nonconformity substantially impairs the motor vehicle.


    (3) If the nonconformity does substantially impair the motor vehicle, the informal dispute settlement panel shall then determine, in accordance with this part, whether a reasonable number of attempts have been made to correct the nonconformity.


    (4) If a reasonable number of attempts have been made to correct the nonconformity, the informal dispute settlement panel shall determine whether the manufacturer has been given an opportunity to repair the motor vehicle as provided in § 55-24-202.


    (5) If the manufacturer has been given an opportunity to repair the motor vehicle as provided in § 55-24-202, the panel shall find that the consumer is entitled to refund or replacement as provided in § 55-24-203(a).



    (6) The informal dispute settlement panel shall determine the amount of collateral charges, where appropriate.



    § 55-24-207. Limitation of actions


    (a) Any action brought under this part shall be commenced within six (6) months following:


    (1) Expiration of the express warranty term; or


    (2) One (1) year following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever is the later date.


    (b) The statute of limitations shall be tolled for the period beginning on the date when the consumer submits a dispute to an informal dispute settlement procedure as provided in § 55-24-206 and ending on the date of its decision or the date before which the manufacturer, its agent or its authorized dealer is required by the decision to fulfill its terms, whichever comes later.




    § 55-24-208. Costs; attorney fees


    If a consumer finally prevails in any action brought under this part, such consumer may be allowed by the court to recover as part of the judgment a sum equal to the aggregate amount of costs and expenses, including attorneys' fees based on actual time expended, determined by the court to have been reasonably incurred by the plaintiff for or in connection with the commencement and prosecution of such action.



    § 55-24-209. Repair orders; copies


    A manufacturer, its agent or authorized dealer shall provide to the consumer, each time the consumer's vehicle is returned from being serviced or repaired, a copy of the repair order indicating all work performed on the vehicle, including, but not limited to, parts and labor provided without cost or at reduced cost because of shop or manufacturer's warranty, the date the vehicle was submitted for repair, the date it was returned to the consumer, and the odometer reading.



    § 55-24-210. Rights or remedies


    (a) Nothing in this part shall in any way limit the rights or remedies which are otherwise available to a consumer under any other law.


    (b) In no event shall a consumer who has resorted to an informal dispute settlement procedure be precluded from seeking the rights or remedies available by law. However, if the consumer elects to pursue any other remedy in state or federal court, the remedy available under this part shall not be available insofar as it would result in recovery in excess of the recovery authorized by § 55-24-203 without proof of fault resulting in damages in excess of such recovery.


    (c) Any agreement entered into by a consumer for, or in connection with, the purchase or lease of a new motor vehicle which waives, limits or disclaims the rights set forth in this part shall be void as contrary to public policy.
    These rights shall inure to a subsequent transferee of such motor vehicle.



    § 55-24-211. Sellers; lessors


    No action shall be commenced or maintained under the provisions of this part against the seller or lessor of a motor vehicle unless the seller or lessor is also the manufacturer, or unless the manufacturer of the motor vehicle is not subject to service of process in the state of Tennessee, or service cannot be secured by the long-arm statutes of Tennessee, or unless the manufacturer has been judicially declared insolvent.



    § 55-24-212. Fleet vehicle resale; disclosures


    Any business entity which purchases a fleet of new motor vehicles, titles such motor vehicles in the business entity's name and sells such vehicles to an individual purchaser shall disclose in writing any remaining manufacturer's warranty on such motor vehicles to such purchaser.



    Current through End of 2004 Second Reg. Sess.
    END OF DOCUMENT


    Copr. (C) 2004 West. No Claim to Orig. U.S. Govt. Works.
    Next Part
    #87
  8. iwanna05

    iwanna05 New Member

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    [ looks like they intend to replace it if they have removed the engine. So maybe that is a good sign.

    I agree, if they were just going to play dumb they would not have removed the engine, obvously they are planing to take care of this whole mess, just give them time, which is easy for us to say, but don't blow up at the people that are in position of helping you, that usually throws up a wall between you, and then you WILL get passed around like a 2 dollar hooker. Belive me, I have seen it happen alot in the business I am in. True, the squeaky wheel gets greased, but you want the right kind of grease.
    Maintain your cool!
    #88
  9. GetImpact

    GetImpact New Member

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    I don't know about you fellows, but if my car was needing to undergo deep surgery so early on AND by people who have very little experience with this new model, I'd want a whole new car. They can't figure out what's wrong with it? Well... what does that tell you?

    Really. What sort of faith could I have in the integrity of their work? Screw being a Guinea Pig... it only makes you worry.

    It's not like you are risking this tampering for the sake of ending up with an improved machine. The best they will do for you is to make it as close to stock as they can when they put it back together. How clean will that work be? Then... your car has had a major repair and so (sold honestly) it is worth less at resale time later on. Yes, that means you have lost value from the car in this matter.

    Their initial offer will ALWAYS favor them the most in any scenario, so you have room to negotiate for a better option. They will try and stand pat like you have no other options (at first), but that ISN'T TRUE! It is a game with these reps. They play it all the time (because it is their JOB).

    I'd hold out for either a direct replacement at no additional cost, or negotiate a good deal on a different trim/color that you like even better.

    I took a loss trading back a first model year loaded SVT Focus (the list of problems was long, frequent and rediculous, but not 'technically' a lemon yet). I got that back in trade-up to this current car I have. Fresh, new and out the door with premium warranty, no money down for $21K and less interest on that to boot. Upside down about $3K on the Focus after 14 months driving it. So... $3K lost on trade and about $7K off sticker+TTT on the '04 of my choice in '03.

    I call it even, minus some frustration. After all, that Focus WAS very workable most of the time I had it, just with many nagging troubles cropping up along the way.

    This new car has been without troubles, BTW.

    Play your hand cool and wisely, take your time, think it out and make sure you are reasonably satisfied. That can come from a fair fresh start with Ford, but you have to make it happen (gently and with persistence).
    #89
  10. 351CJ

    351CJ New Member

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    Cleveland, TN is very much a real place. It's near Chattanooga.
    #90
  11. TicketMeRed05GT

    TicketMeRed05GT Member

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    Update on my GT Engine is out of my car...

    To date I have been waiting on the dealer and Ford to decide on what to do with my car. Today I was informed by the dealer that Ford wants them to do a leak down test on the engine before they can decide on providing a replacement engine. Before they removed the engine, they said it failed compression test on two cylinders. They said they ordered a new gasket set and will do the new test as soon as they can rebuild the motor. That will most likely be well into next week.

    It has been explained to me that as long as no mechanical or other defect is found, Ford will not replace the motor. The consumer (me) has no recourse, but to wait on these steps to be performed while they figure out what went wrong. Keep in mind the motor has been sitting out of the car for three days.

    For those of you that think a lawyer would expedite the situation, I would like to here some real situations. Because from what I see here they are breaking no laws, but I am still screwed. From what I hear here and from people I discuss this with, they agree with me that Ford / dealer should make this right and get me a new car or a replacement engine with a ESP warranty. But from a "been here and doing that" situation, the customer has little choice other than to take it. Lemon law in Tennessee is 30 days out of service. Seven and counting. The engine is still in pieces and a gasket set is on order.
    #91
  12. TicketMeRed05GT

    TicketMeRed05GT Member

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    Check out my update in a seperate thread...

    Thanks for the support. Man this hurts. :bang:
    #92
  13. NosferatuVI

    NosferatuVI New Member

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    Leak down test or not that is BS. Ford should replace your motor period. Just because your motor NOW has a ring seating problem does not mean that was the problem and what made it jump time.

    At 900 rpm the rings dont just give out, they will however under extreme pressure as in being out of time be forced into the cylinder sleave causing gashes. But just the fact that you have blow by can not cause the motor to go out of time. This situation may look puzzling to them but considering all of the damage that COULD have happend, a busted rod, a broken wristpin, bent valve stem etc its allways the "minor" problems that they seem to have a hard time deciding what to do.

    Simply putting a new gasket set and reseating the rings is not going to solve your problem.

    I would absolutely write to Ford a lengthy letter expressing your concerns that the problem would not be adequately addressed by simply installing new gaskets and rings and tell them that it looks like this is a prayer in the wind kind of fix and that they are just hopping it was some freak non-reoccuring mechanical or electrical fault.
    #93
  14. JonJon

    JonJon Founding Member

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    well I hope 30 days comes so you can get a new hopefully not piece of crap car.
    #94
  15. Contrarian

    Contrarian New Member

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    If you want to get ford executives take notice, start posting in all the ford stock investor forums on the web. such as Yahoo, etc.

    Nothing will motivate a suit more than when their 100,000 shares start to drop after analysts hear rumors that a major product line is experiencing flaws.

    I did this once because I was just plain ****ed at the way a company was handling service on something where I worked, so I just let loose about how crappy their service had been the past 2-3 years. I suddenly had a VP e-mailing and got resolution.
    #95
  16. GetImpact

    GetImpact New Member

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    Start setting them up to hand you the keys to a new replacement car right now.

    No way you should be satisfied with this iffy fix they are trying. You aren't to be experimented on. You bought a car that was guaranteed to have no major problems straight off the lot (and you have to take the mindset that only a few days of driving it still means it is NEW).

    Good God... if you paid anywhere near MSRP, I'd insist that you not have to deal with this fluke they created.

    They can poke and prod at it, scratch their heads and fix it up guesswork-style before selling it to another person and tell them the truth about its eventful young history (good luck to them!), but you didn't bargain for this kind of crap... did you?

    Yes... you bought a brand new factory-fresh and working Mustang, and that is what you should get. And not a mysteriously majorly broken one that they are trying to patch up the best they can figure out how for the first time.

    Their engineers should be damned interested in having it for a specimen, I'd think. I sure as hell would be.

    Take a stand. Be firm, but don't be unreasonable. Asking for a new Mustang that doesn't have a serious engine problem the first few days out is NOT unreasonable, dammit.
    #96
  17. JonJon

    JonJon Founding Member

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    exactly, that is my biggest irk with this issue. if they put it back together, it is a car with a teardown history that I'm pretty sure shows up on the car history. that's not good for anybody.

    it's supposed to be new, not taken apart and put back together. :notnice:
    #97
  18. BigDaddyNTraing

    BigDaddyNTraing New Member

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    TicketMeRed05GT,

    Those guys at Ford have got to know that this is unacceptable. You've got a car that has a SERIOUS mechanical history and it's only a few days old! They should give you a new car just to get you to shut up and quit spreading this awful story around.

    Are you sure your handle shouldn't be "TicketMeDead05GT"???

    Big Daddy out.
    #98
  19. terraform

    terraform New Member

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    I agree with these guys, TicketMe. I must commend you on your patience, because I'd be throwing people out the window by now if I was in your situation.

    You know, it'd be one thing if this car was even a couple months old, but you had it for what.. less than a week? I hate to even say this, but honestly... Let's say they put this new gasket set on and everything "seems" fine - are you ever going to really trust this car?

    Also, although these are Ford mechanics, your ENTIRE MOTOR is out of your brand new car! Imagine all the things that can be done imporperly without anyone noticing when they put this thing back together. Things none of us can even speculate about right now, because, like your dealership's mechanics, these cars are very new to us. With the way they seem to treat people, I doubt the cars get much more attention to detail.

    Also, I agree with the comment about this teardown being in the car's mechanical history. I mean, that's going to affect the car in a negative way until there's a new motor in the car, be it a week from now or ten years from now.

    I think you have every right to raise absolute hell at this point, with this shoddy stop-gap fix they're trying to pull. It's absolutely deplorable and you deserve better as a customer. Get into the mindset that the black GT you mentioned liking at the dealership is now your goal. Get rid of this problem and let the dealership handle it's own problem. The situation isn't your fault, and you shouldn't be continually stepped on because FoMoCo has your money. That's insane.

    Hell, show them this thread. You're reading a post from a potential 05 buyer right now, but I'll tell you right now, this definitely makes me think twice.

    I sincerely hope this works out for you. Best of luck.
    #99
  20. stkdidy

    stkdidy New Member

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    if u talk to a lawyer, talk to them about Lemon Laws...
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