Need Help! Need Advice For Super Charger On 03 Gt

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by danno, May 18, 2014.

  1. danno

    danno New Member

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    Hi, new here! Just bought a 2003 GT. Has 50,000 miles, cold air intake, exhaust, short throw shifter, (the usual) anyway, I'm looking to get a super charger and have my heart set on a kenne bell. Need help on what set up to get. Trying to get to 400hp, what other mods are needed? (Fuel system, electric, gears etc) I'm new to this and kinda lost. This would be just a weekend driver, to have fun with so no racing or anything. Would love the help, thanks
     
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  2. Nightfire

    Nightfire Mustang Master

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    Any particular reason why you prefer a KB over a centri or turbo setup? Positive displacement blowers (like the KB) are tons of fun on the street (where speeds are usually rather low). A properly set-up centri or turbo will outrun a positive displacement blower 9 times out of 10 in a true race (max RPM). Also, PD blowers like the KB suffer from "heat soak" which hurts both performance and the motor. Centri and turbo setups avoid this by utilizing an air-to-air intercooler which significantly reduces the temp of the air entering the engine.

    I say you look into Procharger or Vortech/Paxton
     
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  3. danno

    danno New Member

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    just thought the kb was a good sc, always saw them on the 03-04 cobras and thought it would be a good fit. (New to this stuff.) I appreciate the info and will look into the others you mentioned.
     
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  4. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    Aaaaaannnddddd.......here we go again.
     
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  5. trinity_gt

    trinity_gt Advanced Member

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    Just get one of KB's intercooled 2.1L "Big Bore" kits. Complete bolt-on and you "need" nothing else. You might "want" a set of 3.55 or 3.73s but if you do consider a tire/traction upgrade. Other upgrades might include a Lightning MAF and cold air kit from KB. Again, not strictly needed but there if you want them.

    That will easily get you your HP goal. These are very streetable, low-maintenance set-ups. Don't worry about heatsoak on a street-driven weekend cruiser. This is the exact duty my car sees (1.7L kit) and it's fine. Just keep the blower from pulling in hot underhood air and it'll be fine.
     
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  6. Nightfire

    Nightfire Mustang Master

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    You PD guys preach nothing but dyno graphs and "power under the curve"....yet they are consistently outperformed at the track by centri and turbo guys. Hell, I run 0.4 slower than a 2012 GT500 running 650rwhp. The guy can drive like a pro and destroys me out of the hole. I pull slightly in the mid range and freight-train him on the top end.....but he was just too far ahead from the get-go.

    Most of the PD blower Mustangs at my track run horrible times for their setup.

    YOU'LL NEVER GET ME TO BELIEVE YOUR PD-BABBLE SNEAKY! On paper they should win.....but I just never see it.

    .....and don't even get me started on the heat-soak issues.
     
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  7. trinity_gt

    trinity_gt Advanced Member

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    The guy said he wanted "just a weekend driver, to have fun with" and "so no racing or anything" so I'm not sure what relevance a "cool story bro" track story has here.

    Centris lack the instant torque of PD blowers and turbo kits like those from Hellion require surgery to swap the K-member and front suspension out (not everyone wants to screw with their car to that degree) and have questionable emissions-compliance issues, underhood heat and lag to deal with as well.

    If you want to be a streetfire video king trying to chase down Corvettes on the freeway yeah, maybe a centri or turbo is the way to go. But for a weekend cruiser, instant torque is king and the PD delivers that, along with simplicity, compactness and reliability.

    There is no one best answer for forced induction. Road racers, bench racers and daily-drivers all have different needs. Given the OP's criteria, I still think a twinscrew would best suit him.
     
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  8. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    Oh, Nightfire, you force my hand.

    Whether you agree with it or not, it is a FACT that the car that puts down the greatest average torque to the ground WILL win a race. Period. That’s math. No arguing that. And the car with the greatest power under the curve will put down the greatest average torque to the ground. Another FACT.

    Complete, utter nonsense. Not only does every bit of personal experience I have disagree with this, but every OEM on the planet disagrees with it as well. If a centrifugal supercharger really did perform as well, you’d see them on OEM equipped cars. Newsflash: they aren’t.

    It should also be telling when you look at the aftermarket options for newer 5.0s and GT500s, as well as what owners are actually buying. There’s all of about 2 options for a centri blower, with upwards of a dozen options for PD blowers. And, to date, I have not seen ONE 2011+ car with a centri blower on it. At the track, on the street, at a cruise-in, dyno day, etc. Not ONE. Have seen countless ones with TVS’s, Kenne Bells, or Whipples.

    Now you’re actually make some sense. The very best performing cars at the track on any given day I go are usually well set-up turbo cars. Their downfall is usually the cost and complexity of the system and tuning. But overcome that, and turbo cars usually run very strong.

    It reminds me of the old saying:
    A positive displacement supercharger gives low rpm torque, but robs crank horsepower.
    A turbocharger doesn't rob crank horsepower, but doesn't give low rpm torque.
    A centrifugal supercharger doesn't give low rpm torque AND robs crank horsepower.

    :p

    You realize that you’re proving my point, right? 4 tenths at your power range is significant, around 5 car lengths. And while he has 100-125 rwhp on you, he also has around 500 pounds on you as well. If a manual transmission car is beating you off the line, especially if you have a converter and built transmission, that should be telling about how much more torque he’s making down low than you are. Even at a relatively significantly power disadvantage, a stalled auto should ALWAYS be quicker off the line than a manual transmission.

    Out of curiosity, what are the other numbers comparing the two cars? 60 times, trap speeds?

    If you don’t like them, that’s fine. But don’t go giving your opinions as fact to someone who doesn’t know any better.

    More nonsense. The water-meth on my NON-intercooled Heaton cools it down from scalding hot in a matter of a second or two. And then it stays cool for several minutes following. I’ve done runs at the track from return lane straight to back to the staging box, and rarely do I lose more than a tenth or two. And for the cars with an air-to-water intercooler, they do just fine relatively speaking on cooling the ACTs down. Is it true that you’ll lose power on back-to-back runs with no cool down? Absolutely. But you’ll find that to be true on any car.

    There is nothing wrong with air-to-air intercoolers, but don’t be fooled into thinking that air-to-water intercoolers are inferior. Go to a track, and look at a 1500+ horsepower X275 or 10.5 car and find one running an air-to-air intercooler. Pro-tip: don’t waste your time looking, you won’t find one. They’re all air-to-water. The reason? Because you can actually cool the air to below ambient temps. With an air-to-air, even at 100% efficiency, you can’t get it below ambient. So on a 90 degree race day, you’re looking at 90 degree ACTs if the intercooler is perfect (which it’s not). But with ice water in an air-to-water, you can get those temps down well in to the 50s or even 40s on a hot day. Some smart folks out there even invented a system for the 03/04 Cobras that pumps the intercooler fluid through the air conditioner so that you cool the water way down, and it actually works very well, especially on the street where you’re running the A/C anyway.

    So bottom line: PD >>> centrifugal. :)

    Nightfire, don’t take any of this personally. I need to have something to do during my off-time at work. :p
     
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  9. restomod66

    restomod66 Member

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    Sneaky absolutely destroys in this debate with hard data, facts, and personal experience every time. But, one thing really stands out to me in this argument and it's that NOT ONE, not a SINGLE manufacturer has ever installed a Centri supercharger onto a vehicle, and likely never will for a multitude of reasons explained here. There is such thing as a biased opinion, and there is such thing as a fact based one. The KB blower fits your plan, and what you intend to use the vehicle for, and they sound AWESOME at full tilt. I have a little skin in this game as well. A number of years ago I ran a Vortech on an 01 Cobra and that car was an absolute monster in a freeway roll on, but it just didn't excite me unless I was going 9/10s. Then, I was given a ride in a Kenne Bell powered 03 Cobra and my life was forever changed. Torque, Torque, and more Torque. Power throughout the RPM band.
     
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  10. trinity_gt

    trinity_gt Advanced Member

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    Well, a few have but it was decades ago...

    Studebaker installed a Paxton on the 1964 Avanti. Kaiser and Ford also had Paxton-equipped option packages I think.

    But this was quite literally 50 years ago. Nowadays, no one is using centrifugals as original equipment. Though a few OEs are sticking with PD blowers on some engines most are migrating to turbochargers now. For them the intense R&D needed to get the emissions and packaging sorted out is made up for in the ability to use smaller engines to get the torque and power (e.g. Ford's Ecoboost V6) and the efficiency: utilizing otherwise-wasted exhaust energy versus using crankshaft torque to compress the air.

    I'd love a low-pressure twin-turbo setup on my GT but until a kit-maker casts manifolds that packages a pair of turbos as well as OEs do, ain't going to happen.

    KB kits are OE quality and fitment. The only thing they could do differently is offer pre-formed hoses for the intercooler heat-exchanger instead of using OTS heater hoses...
     
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  11. Nightfire

    Nightfire Mustang Master

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    Every manufacturer uses PD blowers because they're usually cheaper (roots style) and much easier to install.

    Oh and sneaky, I get beat off the line by this guy repeatedly because Im on DR's and he's on slicks spinning aint winning.

    There's nothing like a linear power curve IMO. Ive ridden in a PD car and it was a blast on the street....but my car on the highway feels like there is no limit how fast it will go.

    Im always going to rep centri/turbo setups, period. I will be participating for the first time in a KOTS even at our local track. It just so happens that the VAST majority of cars in the power adder class are all centri/turbo cars and completely blow away the PD cars.
     
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  12. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Yeesh....not this old run around again. :rolleyes:

    Tell that to the New Edge I beat with my MN12 Cougar a couple of years back at the North Shore NHRA "Show me the Money" tour. I had 600lbs on him, IRS with 3.27's and an auto trans and a little old Eaton M90S, to his Vortech S-Trim blown, 3.73 geared 5-speed. Both of us were running Mickey Thompson ET Street Radials, both were seeing around 9psi, both were running mid-12's at over 110mph.....but guess which car got out of the hole and got to end of the track first.....every single time. I'll give you a hint....it wasn't a Mustang. :D

    And we'll be right here with ya, straightening out your so called facts for the newbs who don't know any better and might otherwise take your word as gospel. :p

    No surprise....non intercooled Vortech's can be had for about 2/3 the price of an intercooled PD blower....even if they are slower. Lowest bidder and all. Cheaper still doesn't make it faster.

    Now you clowns knock it off or I'll show up with my H/C/I nitrous gulping 331ci Fox body Coupe and show you all some tail lights!!! ;)
     
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  13. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    I don't necessarily doubt that, but I'd still like to hear the numbers I asked for earlier.

    Might better be careful not to bite off more than you can chew! Gonna have to whoop some Canadian tail with a little 281 on drag radials! :D
     
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  14. restomod66

    restomod66 Member

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    I think a well packaged and affordable turbo kit for the Mustang is still in the distant future. Turbo's when set up right make the most, and the most efficient power of any power-adder available. But, it's just not an attainable goal for most at this point and time unless you're willing to open up that check book in a big way. Centri's are a great way to save some money when going forced induction though. In hindsight I wish I had just spent a little extra money on the Kenne Bell intercooled kit rather than going with the Vortech kit for my 01 Cobra. Hp sells parts but TQ wins races.
     
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  15. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash
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    Just remember.....if need be, I can change nitrous jets, faster than you can swap a blower pulley. :D
     
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  16. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    Hehehehe....what you don't know yet......is that so can I. :burnout:
     
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  17. Mattstang04

    Mattstang04 Active Member

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    Danno, if you want a KB, go get yourself the best damn KB kit you can get in your price range. Put bigger fuel pump in, like a SVT Focus, Ford GT or Lincoln Aviator pump. Maybe think about putting on a KB Boost a Pump or JMS fuel pump booster. Get some bigger injectors, 39 or 40 pounders would be fine for 400 rwhp but if you want to do 60s, they'll tune up just fine. Upgrade the Mass Air Flow sensor with either a 90mm Lightning AND a Mafia voltage extender or get a good SCT MAF sensor and skip the Mafia.

    Get an appointment with a reputable tuner and make sure they tune it on the safe side. Not over extending the fuel system or setting the timing to aggressive. Those equal blown motors.

    I myself would wait on getting gears as the KB and other positive displacement blowers will light the tires up pretty easily without lower gears. See how you feel about gears after its all together and tuned up.

    I have a centri blower and I love it. However, my dad's Lightning (stock Eaton blower) is crazy fun for burning the tires up and being the first one in line after the light turns green.

    As far as the debate over which is better...I knew when I bought my car I was putting a ProCharger on it. I have no regrets. My car is a freakin' rocket ship when you wind it up. If I build another Mustang in the future, I will likely put a KB on it. If you have it in your mind to get a KB, then make it happen. You won't regret it. You just can't go wrong when it comes to boost.
     
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  18. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Fried or Broiled ?

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    What looks cooler? The KB of course.

    If money is no object for me its a no brainer a shiny KB is the ****ing shizznit.
     
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  19. Nightfire

    Nightfire Mustang Master

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    LOL this is simply a "Im going to rep the application that I have". Ive yet to loose to a PD setup. Until I do (one with a similar setup as mine), I'll be staying on the centri bandwagon.
     
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  20. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    Roll on up to NC. There's more than a few single digit 2.3 TVS and 2.9 Whipple cars just within a hundred miles of here. Some of them manual transmission cars on top of that. Plenty of 10 second Eaton Cobras, too

    About to be a 10 second Eaton 2-valve! :D
     
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