Engine No start after timing chain replacement??

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by ImportSlayer347, Jan 8, 2013.


  1. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Time to pull the engine out of the car...
     
    #61
  2. ImportSlayer347

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    I don't have the tools/equipment or the garage space to pull a motor. I'm fckd.
     
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  3. madmike1157

    madmike1157 the humor is still lost on me
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    OK,....you should at least pull the pan. It can be done in the car, but you'll have to drop the K memeber, and the K member holds the engine, so.............you'll have to have a way to hold the engine in place while you drop the K member.
    A BIG GIANT PAIN IN THE ASS.

    or you can rent an engine hoist and pull the engine, drop the pan,..remove the fragged/broken shi t,...drill out the tiny assed broken thrust plate bolts, retap the holes clean, put the pan back on, and put it back in the car. For a seasoned mechanic this whole process shouldn't take more than a day. For you,.......you might wanna give it a little more time.
    (Like....... I'd set aside several days).
    OR you can pay the mechanic that installed the chain in the first place to do it, either way...........
    YOU CANNOT RUN THE ENGINE W THE REMAINS OF THE LIQUID SANDPAPER THAT IS NOW IN YOUR OIL PAN.
    You might get lucky and it might lay dormant in the bottom of the pan,. but given that you have "unfortunate" in the ways of lady luck, would not be willing to take that chance under any circumstance.
    Bite the bullet,....find a way to do it,...and do it.

    And......Welcome to the reality show that is car crafting,....As long as you intend to play w/ cars,...expect this kind of stuff at least once in your lifetime.
     
    #63
  4. gearheadboy

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  5. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Been there, done that - You can do it in the car, but it is hard to do. The best way is to pull the engine.

    Disconnect the battery at the battery ground terminal, remove the fan and fan shroud. Both motor mounts will need to have the large nuts that secure them to the frame removed. The trans mount will also have to be loosened, and it is a good idea to remove the drive shaft.

    I also had to disconnect the cat pipes at the headers to get the engine high enough to remove the oil pan. Be prepared to have to drop the steering rack and disconnect the steering shaft. Jack up the engine with a wood block under the oil pan and watch for things that bind or hoses/electrical wiring that may need to be disconnected. I put a couple of wood blocks between the headers and the frame to support the engine. You will likely need to jack up the rear of the transmission as well to get the required clearance.

    Scrape the pan mating surfaces clean as possible - old gasket stuck to the surfaces are a source of leaks.

    There is a one piece oil pan gasket which will help re-assembly if you can find it. If you can't get this gasket, use weather strip adhesive to secure the cork gasket to the pan rails and the rubber strips to the bearing caps. Use lots of Acetone or MEK to clean the gasket surfaces so the weather strip adhesive will stick good. Read the instructions on the adhesive carefully to make sure the gaskets are permanently stuck in place and won't move when you slide the pan in place. Use lots of blue silicone sealer on top of the front and rear rubber seals where they mate with the pan.

    Fill with oil, replace the filter. Reconnect the battery, switch the ignition on to enable the gages, but DON'T crank the car. Remove the distributor and use a 1/4" hex socket to turn the pump counter clock wise (same direction as distributor rotation) until you see oil pressure (an external gage is a great help long about now). And keep turning for about 30 sec after you see the pressure come up. A reversible drill is the best tool to use to turn the 1/4" socket. The pressure should come up to about 50-80psi with cold oil. Once you see good pressure, check for obvious leaks, and then and only then, lower everything back into place and bolt down the mounts and anything else you had to take loose.

    Re-install the distributor and set the timing with the engine running using timing light (don't forget to disconnect the SPOUT plug and reconnect it when finished) 12-14 degrees BDC is good. Start up and check for leaks, let it warm up and look again for leaks. It took me 2 days plus, but I am old and slow, maybe your granny is faster.
     
    #65
  6. ratio411

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    Dayum.
    I hate to hear that.

    I don't know if a valve hit a piston, if that could break a chain? Maybe?

    I can't see any other way...
    Maybe you forgot the copper washer behind the cam sprocket?
    Would that .060" allow the back of the sprocket hit, and therefore shear off the cam retainer bolts?

    I hate to say it, but a piston hitting a valve, bringing everything to a violent halt is all I can think of, but hopefully I am wrong.

    I agree with removing the pan too. Cleaning up this mess is going to have to be meticulous.
     
    #66
  7. ratio411

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    The more I think about it, the more I believe he is going to need to inspect the cam too.
    That kind of violent failure at the valvetrain could have done all sorts of nasty things to roller lifter axles and cam lobes.

    As for the debris in the oil pan...
    This is exactly the sort of thing that gets into your oil pump and snaps your pump drive shaft.
     
    #67
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  8. ratio411

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    Maybe you bolted the sprocket on backwards?
    Can you tell if it was tightened down against the thrust plate bolts?
    Spinning the engine with the sprocket bound up by the thrust plate would break the chain in short order.
    That is certainly a better scenario than valves binding up, and wiping the cam lobe before breaking the chain.

    Hmmm.... The sprocket much have been backwards. That is the only thing that can shear the thrust plate. Right?
     
    #68
  9. madmike1157

    madmike1157 the humor is still lost on me
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    It's just too much crazy sh it to even try and speculate. The thrust washer bolts had to go first, (The gear had to somehow interfere w/ them) as they are absolutely not related to any other part failure in the sequence of events. Once the the bolts were gone,....they would've let the cam walk and then maybe a lifter somehow got jammed up between lobes and wouldn't let the cam spin any more and the chain went next.

    Anybody else wanna guess what happened?:shrug:
     
    #69
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  10. ratio411

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    Well, I w0uldn't want to put money on a guess, but the worst thing I can think of is:

    Valves hit pistons, cam comes to violent halt, chain breaks, gets wrapped behind the cam sprocket and rips the heads off the retainer bolts.

    I am sticking with that scenario unless there is substantial evidence that the cam sprocket was installed backwards, leaving it bolted tight up against the cam retainer plate/bolts, and unable to spin. This is one case where it will have been better to install the part backwards, because if wasn't installed backwards, the worst case scenario is the most likely.
     
    #70
  11. madmike1157

    madmike1157 the humor is still lost on me
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    Either way,....there is now a whole bunch of tiny little pieces that used to be part of a bigger one laying around the base of the oil pump in that front sump, and there may in fact be damaged valves and a hurt cam.

    I am Sorry for you OP. Every one of us on here has a story of their hard knock that ended up costing them big time. ( Me especially) In the end it wouldn't have made a difference if you had heeded any of my or the others earlier advice regarding removing the timing chain cover.
    All of this carnage happened the instant you turned the key.
     
    #71
  12. TOOLOW91

    TOOLOW91 Mustang Master

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    OP sorry to hear this , my
    story is in my build thread I no your pain .... I had a motor in my car from Somone , changed intake , dropped oil pump shaft , thought I fished it in , ps I didn't it snapped I changed the oil pump and pan In the car , a week later I blew my 4 week old motor up.... we live and learn
     
    #72
  13. Bill Gordon

    Bill Gordon Active Member

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    OP, sorry to hear that. It probably doesn't help but I've had my run in with bad luck in the past myself...I know what it feels like. I've learned to double check everything before it gets covered, bolted etc; If you end up pulling the motor, a good freshening up will keep her on the road for a long time to come...
     
    #73
  14. madmike1157

    madmike1157 the humor is still lost on me
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    Valves couldn't have hit pistons and locked up engine,.....wasn't he trying to start the engine (by cranking w/ starter) up until he pulled the dist cap and had his friend observe a stagnant rotor?
     
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  15. ImportSlayer347

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    As soon as I cranked the motor over I heard the noise which I now know was the chain snapping.
     
    #75
  16. Boydster

    Boydster Active Member

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    OP, sorry about your luck, man. Like it's been said, we all have our horror stories. I had a 3-cent washer cause a total engine rebuild. I still have the bent and broken washer.

    Good luck getting your motor fixed up. I'd be thinking about having a serious talk with the mechanic that did the timing chain.
     
    #76
  17. liljoe07

    liljoe07 Active Member

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    You have tons of problems. May as well pull the heads off and figure out how many valves need to be replaced. This turned out costly for fixing a leak.
     
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  18. ImportSlayer347

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    The sprockets were on backwards. I went back and looked at some of the pics we took. It looks like after he lined up the dots, he pulled the sprockets off to put the chain on and I slid them on backwards. So soon as I turned the motor over it sheered the bolts of the thrust plate off and the chain broke.
     
    #78
  19. ratio411

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    Well, it could have been worse things.
    Now you know you didn't likely damage anything else, like cam and valvetrain.
     
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  20. ImportSlayer347

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    I put it all back together today. This keeps getting worse and worse. I tried to turn it over and it sounds like its starting too fast. I STILL HAVE NO SPARK!!! Not only does it sound aweful when I try to crank it over, there still is no spark from the coil. The distributor rotor is turning now. I can see inside the valve cover and everything is moving now when I try t o start. I hate this car.

    It sounds so terrible when it cranks. It sounds like it is turning over way too fast. I wish I could explain the strange sound it makes.
     
    #80

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