non roller cam/lifters in roller block

[outlaw66]

I just purchased a 5.0 1984 short block. I am assuming this is a roller block.
I have installed a comp cams hyd non roller cam and lifters and am experiencing all kinds of funky things, like low oil pressure at idle, difficulty in adjusting valve lash, poor engine response etc. I ordered an early model block, non-roller, pre 81, but got this 84 5.0 block. I had to buy the adapter to use my mechanical Z bar clutch assembly because there was no threaded boss on the back of the block to accept the clutch ball. All this was made very clear to the engine guys, but I got a 5.0 block regardless. My question is, will non roller lifters work properly in a roller block. I believe the lifter bores in a roller block are longer and my concern is that the lifter is not oiling properly because of the difference in length in early block lifter bores and roller block lifter bores. I searched the forum but could only find info about installing roller cams in early blocks, not vice versa.
I'm hoping I can purchase some different lifters and not have to go the entire roller cam route. The comp cam and lifters are new along with roller rockers, purchased based on use of an early block.
I need some words of wisdom here as I'm about to put a slug in this engine.

Thanks guys

outlaw 66

 

[D.Hearne]

It's fine to run flat tappet lifters and cam in a roller block, but if it truly is an 84 block, it's not a roller. Roller blocks went into production in the 85 model year. What heads are you running? If these are the earlier with pressed in studs, I'll bet the studs are being pulled loose with the bigger cam and springs. Or you've wiped a few cam lobes. Lots of those lately. The problem is one of the follwing or a combination : poor quality lifters, lack of zinc in the oil, too much or too slick lube not allowing the cam lobes to grip the lifter bottom and set it spinning on initial fireup.

 

[fast4cheap]

make sure you have the right flywheel and harmonic balancer if it is 81 up you need 50 ounce equipment, 80 and below have 28 ounce and if you got it wrong it will not last, and it sounds to me like you are wiping out you cam lobes, its common with todays new oils, all new flat tappet cams should be broken in with rotella 15w 40 motor oil its the only oil out there with enough zinc to aid in proper breakin of flat tappet cam I learned this the hard way.

 

[outlaw66]

D. i got the 84 block number off the date code. was not sure when the roller blocks started. Heads are the JEGs aluminum with screw in studs and guide plates. New comp cam with new comp cam lifters and cam lube on startup. I'm hoping I haven't wiped a lobe but anything is possible. I guess I can pull the intake and check the lifters to see.
fast4cheap...I am aware of the 28 oz/50 oz difference and am sure that is correct. I have never heard the rotella information before, wish I had before I started this new engine. The oil pressure is under 25 at idle with an entire new bottom end, camshaft and lifters. Pressure increases with RPM up to around 50/60. Has new Melling HV pump. The engine was started, not allowed to idle and run up to 2500 RPM immediately to spray oil the camshaft. If the cam wiped a lobe that easy, thats crap. I remember putting cams in with white grease or STP on the lobes and never wiped a cam lobe. Comps instructions were followed.

So I can understand.....the lifter bore length is the same for all early 289 / 302's and switching to flat tappets is OK even if it was a roller block?

Thanks guys, any other info greatly appreciated,

Outlaw

 

[GoinBroke]

Yep,

Flat tappet in a roller set up is ok. Read the following on the "new" cam breakin procedures for the "old" style cams.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

 

[outlaw66]

thanks goinbroke...wish I had read that article earlier. all I did was follow Comps instructions, which had no mention of rotella as mentioned in the article by one of their representatives. regardless, I've probably wiped aout a new cam and set of lifters. if so, i will reinstall the lunati and lifters purchased about 10 years ago that worked fine in my previous engine. don't have much confindence in a cam company that says one thing in their install instructions and another to a publication.
I would assume their cam lube would contain appropriate amounts of zinc and any other necessary additives to achieve best results during breakin for their products.
I should take your "handle" as this kind of crap will sure bankrupt a guy rather quickly. I will call Comp Cams but won't expect any kind of compensation.
The quality of the cam I guess just goes with the quality of the rest of the crap being sold out there as performance parts. I have a garage full of sub quality expensive parts that I refuse to install on my cars. I guess its becoming the American way to just make the sale and forget the customer.
guess I'll go teardown a brand new engine and remove a brand new camshaft and throw it in my brand new trash can.

Thanks for the continuing education guys...............

outlaw

 

[D.Hearne]

Outlaw, The cam problem isn't just with Comp Cams, it's all of them. I've wiped a single lobe on both a Comp and a Crane cam in the pst few years. The Comp wiped after I slathered it with Moly lube, & used Pennzoil 20W50 for break-in. The one lobe/lifter was finished after 30 minutes. If it were a Zinc problem, it would have wiped more than a single lobe. The Crane wiped after trying to break it in in near 30 degree temps. Oil was too cold (thick) but was ND straight 30 weight Havoline (Texaco) Again, if it were a zinc problem, there would have been more than a single lobe wiped. I'm inclined to think the problem is with inferior lifters, and their not being ground correctly on their bottoms. On both the second go rounds, I only used a thin film of lube on the lobe and lifter bottom, oil everywhere else. I did this with a Summit P/N 5200 cam in a 400 Ford also. No problems, everything went just as it was supposed to. If the cam lobe doesn't ge the traction necessary to set the lifter in motion (spinning in it's bore) immediately, that's sure death for both. There's a reason cam lobes (flat tappet) are given a parkerized finish when new. It's for traction on the lifter bottom. Too slick lube and it loses traction.

 

[fast4cheap]

Just wanted to be sure you knew about the balance issue, some dont, hope you havent wiped out a lobe, I have been thru this myself, 3 times in row each time trying something different, last time I put Lucas oil stabilizer on the cam and Rotella 15w40 in the pan and I had no problems, who knew the oil could be so dog on important. GOOD LUCK.

 

[brianj5600]

When I lost a lobe, there was not any noticable noise at idle, but when reved, it knocked softly on rev down. I was lucky and the filter caught the debris. The oil on top of the head was clean, but when I drained the oil, it looked gun metal metalic. I checked a couple bearings and found no signs of matel. What trouble did you have adjusting valves. I doubt it ate more than 1 or 2 lobes if it ate any.

 

[outlaw66]

well guys, thanks agin for the lesson....but....the cam and all its lobes plus all the lifters were completely destroyed. engine probably ran for a total of 20 minutes.
I called comp and of course I must have done something wrong, certainly not the quality of their components. well, I may have done something wrong, but ya know what, I broke in another engine exactly the same way a month ago, nothing happened with it. (not a comp cam either) this one never ran right, and I could not keep the valves adjusted. all adjustments were done cold and i only put a 1/4 turn on the adjuster from zero lash initially. This is ridiculous. I asked the guy at comp cams if there were any other instructions for installation other than those provided with the kit. of course he said "no" ! This really sucks. I have built many engines in the past ( 10 or more yrs ago) with never any problems like this.
Now I'll be really concerned about break-in when there should not have to be that level of concern. This ain;t rocket science. These problems didn't exist in the past. What that tells me is that the quality of the parts have suffered. I'm in the aircraft industry, and if tappets and camshafts failed like this on newly overhauled aircraft engines, the FAA would shut down the manufacturer providing the camshafts/lifters until the reason for the failure was determined. This sucks and I blame the manufacturer. All their instructions were followed. They don't even recommend pre-soaking lifters in oil anymore before installing. All I know is I'm out a few thousand and Comp won;t get my business anymore. Can anyone recommend a reputable Cam manufacturer? I'll get down off my soapbox now!

Outlaw

 

[Pbum5]

Outlaw, THAT SUCKS!!!

I had no idea new cams and lifter had such problems.

Thanks for the article GoinBroke.

Not to hijack but wondering..

Are Rhoads Lifters built any better?

Do the NEW Solid Lifter (non-roller) cams have the same problem of poor materials and going flat?

 

[fast4cheap]

lunati has a great product, I have run there flat tappet cams before, I liked the cam, there is alot to consider, what size cam do you want, are you using too much spring pressure, what type of rocker arms are you using. I have wiped out a few cams myself, there is usually a reason other than a faulty cam. I would dread when it was time to fire up my motors and break in the cam, but lately I havent had a single failure. Just follow the right procedure and double check for spring bind and use rotella and you will be fine. I also coat my cam with lucas oil additive.

 

[D.Hearne]

A total melt down seems to me like a cam core or lifter quality issue as well. When I wiped the lobe on the Comp Cams cam I had, I too called their tech line and the tech then also suggested this being the cause for a total failure. I'd bet if you called again and talked to another tech, you'd get a different answer.

 

[outlaw66]

fast4 cheap....i was using comp pushrods and roller rockers, the heads are Jegs 58 cc aluminum and I checked for spring bind, AND I had just run the lunati cam/liftrs with the same heads with no problems. I just wanted an updated cam so bought the cam/lifter kit from comp and followed their instructions to a T and toasted my NEW shortblock. I guess now I'll pull the balanced crank rods pistons (10.1) and move that 302 rotating assembly into a good 289 block I have and I think I'll put the Lunati back in there cause it worked fine, just an old grind. I had the 302 assembly balanced to 28 oz to fit my balancer/FW but it did have a one piece rear seal in the 84 block. Thats not a crank difference that would prevent putting that 302 crank in the 289 is it?

D. I'll have to try and calling comp again I suppose but the guy I spoke with was not much help nor did he provide much encouragement for any warrenty replacement. Problem is, if the lifters WERE really bad and proved to be the problem, without a metalugical examination to prove the hardness was not proper I have no proof. You're strickly at the mercy of the company who assumes no one knows how to properly install a camshaft, which is BS. BTW, as hard as the news was to swallow, you were dead on. I just did not want to accept the fact that i may have wiped out the cam because I followed their instructions .
I appreciate your help. I'll keep ya posted on what happens.
Thanks guys

Outlaw

 

[tylerrocks]

.............. who knew the oil could be so dog on important.

I did!

 

[fast4cheap]

Are the heads equipped with a innerspring, And was the lunati cam previously broken in while it was in a different engine. why do you got to use a different block, seems to me the crank bearing surfaces should be a main concern. If the lifters are wiped out just knock them out thru the bottom, then take emory cloth and clean the lifter bores, a small brake cylinder hone works good to. In my journey to go faster in my 68 with a clevland I wiped out many cams, I never lost a block. one time I wiped out 3 cams in 1 block. I still run it today.

 

[outlaw66]

fast4cheap....just looking at the lifter bores and feeling them scares me. there is also visable metal residue in the lifter valley. I pulled the engine last night, have not gotten the pan off but expect it to be loaded up as well. I pulled the lifters out the top, which caused some damage, but at the time I was already convinced I was not going to use that block again anyway. The lifter bores are really rough, compared to the two lifter bores that are undamaged which are smooth. ANd of course, using emory cloth or a hone requires complete disassembly of the engine anyway. There are dual springs on the Jegs heads, but no bottoming was occurring. The Lunaiti cam was new in a 289 block that I purchased from an accuaintance, who also told me the bottom end was balanced. I completely disassebled that engine, installed all new bearings etc, but did NOT check the rotating balance, cause this guy said it was done. Well, it was NOT done, in fact it was out of balance, balanced to neutral I think, as the engine vibrated above 1800 RPM, but had good oil pressure etc. The Lunati cam/lifters in THAT engine only had about 300 miles on it, with these same heads. I just bought a 302 short block, and a new comp cam. Thats when I wiped out this NEW cam and engine. Third times gotta be a charm, and I don;t take anyones word for anything anymore unless the engine was assembled by a reputable builder. not after this fiasco.
I will check the 302 block for damage, but I really don't like these lifter bores. Thats why I was going to move the rotating assembly from the 302 to the "Shakin" 289 block and use the Lunati cam. What cha think?

outlaw

 

[65fast]

When did you purchase this cam?

I bought a comp flat tappet cam back in about September or October and got a instruction sheet stating specifically to use Rotella T and a bottle of GM's E.O.S or an equivalent supplement

 

[68RCodeConv]

This thread is why I put roller lifters in my 347 stroker motor. Cost an extra $500 but well worth it for my peace of mind. Hate to have a $5000 motor ruined in 20 minutes.

 

[outlaw66]

Bought the cam in Dec. The instruction mad no mention of Rotella. I re-read after hearing that in this post, No other additive was mentioned either. I also had to call Comp because there was surface rust on two of the cam bearing journals and I did not want to try and scotchbrite the rust without first taling with them first. They said scotchbrite it and if it didn't come off, send it back. It came off. Point being, this cam may have been packaged for a while.

68 RCode....I had no idea the performace market lifters had such a bad rap or I would have certainly done the same. I will never install another NEW cam/lifter kit without it being a roller, you can bet on that.

outlaw