Ok, is there such a thing as a 1/2" spacer for 4 lugs wheels?

Discussion in '1974 - 1978 Mustang II Talk & Tech' started by Gael, Aug 31, 2004.


  1. Dano78

    Dano78 Founding Member

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    I noticed nobody brought up aftermarket wheels such as slotted mags, Cragars, Eagle Alloys, and such. They don't touch the hub center at all! So how do you explain that.

    I can see what you say about the lugs carrying the load and the flex and all that, but fro cripes sake man, it's only 1/2 an inch not 4 inches! A 1/2 of an inch isn't squat. Matter of fact, most your aftermarket wheels that require shank type lug nuts have at least a 1/2 thicker mounting face (esenitally like adding a 1/2 spacer in the same respect) so how is that any different?? Look at E-t and Crager wheels! They dont ride on the hub and the only contact between the lug and wheel is a 1/4 thinck washer! And... how much weight you gonna carry on those hubs??? The rear weight of that car alone is barely enought to even worry about unless you plan on towing a trailer or hauling barkdust with your II. :nonono: Gimmie a break, you guys are killing me with this stuff. We turned circles with 15" wheels and 245/75/15 tires on our race cars week after week and i NEVER had any problems, nor did anyone else. Wheels fallling off... bah... a bunch of crap... guy probably didn't torque 'em right or forgot 1/2 the lug nuts.

    Now anyone with ANY common sence that NEEDED to run a spacer on his/her slicks, I'd say buy you some new wheels. Because in drag racing you're 'shocking' the whole drivetrain at every takeoff from the tree. Runnig spacers with slicks is pretty much a no-no. Too much instant stress to the rear wheels on launches could make them a weak point.

    Bottom line is, if you NEED to run spacers, and you're really that paranoid about them, get a slip-on set specifically machined for your bolt pattern, use ARP wheel studs and nuts and check the torque on them often and I doubt you'll EVER have any problems with running spacers.

    Oh- BTW, IIRC the wheel spacers I was running were, I think,Competition Engineering units that were purchased at my local speed shop, circa '95-'96. Can't remember for sure, been a while since I ran circle track.
    #21
  2. zwhitr

    zwhitr Founding Member

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    Hey if your gonna go fast then do it right tub it out and move the perches in.

    fix the problem not the symptom.
    #22
  3. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE! Founding Member

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    Geez, Dano, if anyone here knows that, just because there is something available doesn't make it a good idea, it would be you.

    How can I explane it? Economics. More profit making a bolt pattern that fits multiple hubs than to make a hub pattern that fits only particular applications. And if a owner installs or has installed a product that fails the manufacturer of the product is no longer liable, the owner or installer is.

    And why do you think damned near every aftermarket product is sold for "off road use only"? Because if you take it on the street and it fails your not using it in accordance with it's intended purpose, once again removing liability from the manufacturer.

    You think more people would take the time to read and understand the disclaimers on everything from carburators to roll bars.



    Your assuming it's proper for the lugs to carry the loads in the first place.

    :rlaugh:

    Man, if we were in the Outhouse/Genepoole/Cococabanna I would think your being intentionally obtuse.

    First, 1/2 inch is alot. Look at a set of factory rims with conical nuts, the nuts go damned near tot he mounting flange with steel rims, and are about 1/4 inch from the flange with aluninum rims. Adding 1/2 inch exposes 3 times as much lug bolt to failure.

    Since the crotch of a thread is a stress point adding 1/2 inch of lug exposure adds about 7.5 inches of stress point for potential failure. It also adds another 1/2 inch to be streached.

    Plus, materials are strongest and best resist movement when placed in shear (well, except for compression, which is what a properly fit rim experiences between hub and center). The closer the nut is to the flange the more the bolt is placed in shear, the further the nut from the flange it more the bolt is exposed to a bending moment. Materials resist deflection least when placed in bending.

    About shoulder (shank) nuts used on your aftermarkets?? Interesting thing about these, the barrel extends almost completely through the rim to the hub flange. Guess what that does? That's right. Places the lug bolt back in shear, and reduces the exposure of the lug bolt.

    And about the extra thick rim centers verses spacers?? One surface to slide verses two sliding surfaces, and the shoulder nut almost contacting the hub face verses a conical nut 3/4 inch from the hub face.






    Oh so you have seen wheels come off and your chosing to believe it was faulty maintenance.? Probably didn't do something right?? Probably???



    Unlikle pot holes and rough roads?

    Mayhaps that's the problem, I'm looking at this in real world terms, that all roads aren't smooth, and that there are obsticles that can't be avoided. Anyone who thinks different are more than likely the type who swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid chipmunks. The Progressive squirrel would be a grease spot.



    Not an option.

    Bottom line is you can do the grown up thing and realize you don't always get what you want.
    #23
  4. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE! Founding Member

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    I think some of these people don't know it's a problem.

    Fact, I don't know how they see it.

    I'm getting the impression that if they can bubble gum and bailer twine it together it's all good as long as it has the look their after.

    What can someone say to change that mentality?

    I'm afraid nothing. Where I am steadfast in form following function, I feel the world moving more and more to the superficial, where substance is of less value.
    #24
  5. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE! Founding Member

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    BTW, please show me one factory rim from the modern era used in it's intended application that doesn't have some form of 'shoulder' for the rim to thust against.

    Can't find one? Know why?

    Because they stuck it on there, if it fails their liable.
    #25
  6. Power Surge

    Power Surge Founding Member

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    Being a former Ford technician as well as someone who works on modern Fords on a daily basis, I can tell you that with the exception of the F-series/Expy/Navigator platform, that no modern Ford uses hubcentric rims. They all still use tapered seat lugs and the rims centers do NOT contact the side lip of the hub. The wheels are centered by the lugs only. On the F-series/Expy/Navigator platform, in 97 they went to a hubcentric rim, where the rim DOES center on the axle hub. Those vehicles use flat washer style lugs (which were recalled early on BTW).
    #26
  7. Gael

    Gael Founding Member

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    Well like I said I know spacers are a touchy subject. I'm looking closely at the wheel/tire thread and seeing what others have had success with. I tried measuring my 14" wheels, that fit fine. They look to have a 4" backspace, and 8" wide, if I measured right. I need to see how much further back they could potentially go, to see if I could even go a tad more backspacing. Sounds like 4.5" is too much, so 4" may be the max I can get away with. I see a lot of people using a 3 3/8" backspacing, which seems like they'd be leaving some potential for more backspacing.

    I'm trying to find the most I can get under the II without modification.
    #27
  8. Johan

    Johan Member

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    The factory rims on my 97 Cobra and my 99 Mazda truck (a Ranger in disguise) sure as heck seem to be hubcentric. I've done a lot of autocrossing with both vehicles, and when changing tires for an event, I always use the hub to locate the wheel before putting the lugs on. The only movement of the wheel as the lugs are tightened is a small rotation of the wheel on the hub as the holes are clocked in line with the lugs. My aftermarket autocross wheels for the truck are NOT hubcentric and you can see the whole rim lift as the lugs are tightened.
    #28
  9. Dano78

    Dano78 Founding Member

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    Mark-
    I see your point and very well understand it. It makes sense and all the physics are there. What I don't understand is the shear point. How do you determine that? I don't know the actual 'shear point' of a 1/2" lug stud and that's why I suggested an aftermarket set to replace the stock ones. Especially when you're dealing with a 2800lb car distributing the weight at four corners? Granted, there are day to day instances where a large crater-like pothole "could" cause such a problem, but wouldn't you expect severe front end damage rather than chasing your wheel down the road? I mean such a pothole to shear four 1/2" lug studs rather than trash a tie rod or whatever......c'mon.....explain how likely that is. I'm trying to be rationally realistic.... Obviously you don't really want to use spacers in any type of competition use but in some cases, under certain criteria, it is allowable. My point was they are allowing it in circle track racing, where hard cornering with large wide tires were being used and they were holding up flawlessly in this type of competition use so in relation, street use, being less harsh (unless you drive like the freaking Indy 500 flag drops at every 4 way stop, on an unimproved road everyday) the durability of such parts would hold up twice a good.

    And of course, NATURALLY, the solution WOULD be to replace the axle with one that would better fit the wheels. Duh! But alot of us don't have money falling outta our bungers so sometimes that band-aid is there to relieve the situation for a short while. besides, if wheel spacers/adapters were really SO dangerous, they wouldn't even be on the shelves, certainly not for offroad use either. I'm sure the NTSB would see to that.

    And me personally, I think any wheel with alot of backspace (like typical Fox body wheels) look like goats bunger anyways. I prefer the 'dish' look in wheels. Makes 'em look even meatier. But that's just me and I'm not the census.
    #29
  10. jshcobra

    jshcobra Founding Member

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    My final 2 cents regarding spacers: 1) spacing does affect wheel bearings. As Dano78 pointed out, on a light II under normal circumstances, the effect would be minimal, but on a heavier car, adding spacers can change the loads on the inner and outer wheel bearings, causing premature failure.

    2) also, keep in mind that spacing a wheel outward has the same effect as softening the suspension due to increased leverage the control arms gain on the spring. Again, on a relatively lightweight II, unless the change was drastic, that probably isn't going to be very noticable and could be easily cured by a stiffer sway bar.
    #30

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