Electrical O'rileys And I Are New Best Friends!

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by SiahNyde, Mar 18, 2014.


  1. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    was at O'rileys 4 times today…only spent money, fixed no problems…

    Here is what I have been experiencing:
    - Reallllllly stupid and annoying clicking from CCRM(?)
    -Fan turns on before car is even started, for no reason
    -Fuel pump primes over and over again before key is even turned for ignition
    -Odometer shows dashes and not numbers while the car performs the aforementioned activities

    While car exhibits these issues, it will not start, engine only cranks over. Once the car stops exhibiting these issues, it will start with no issue.

    What I've tried(in order of cost):
    -Replaced ignition 'tumbler'
    -Replaced ignition switch
    -Replaced ignition relay
    -Cried quietly in fetal position

    What I need help with:
    -Diagnosing this headache
    -or-
    -Copious amount of sleeping pills

    My car has been progressively getting worse over time and is now to the point where it literally makes me try to start it for 20-30 minutes before I am finally able to get it started…

    I'm thinking (after much much much google/forum searching) that is has to be the constant relay module

    Input your brain learnings please!
     
    #1
  2. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Check the ground to the CCRM. There's a black wire with white stripe near the battery. There's one black wire from the battery that goes to a round single wire connector. Coming out of the connector are two black wires.

    Check the grounds around the battery and radiator core support. Are they CLEAN and tight? No frayed wires?

    Check the condition of the battery terminals. Are they clean and tight? Don't cut corners here.

    Test first. Resist the urge to "replace parts".
     
    #2
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
    SiahNyde likes this.
  3. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    Burns, first of all…Thank you so much for the help! Clearly you know much more than I about such topics.

    I think we did what you were instructing…

    -Front body grounds are good
    -battery ground/terminals good
    -Boost a pump ground is good as well, although it was installed by a shop and grounded to a main in the trunk…I don't know if that matters…

    We were able to get the car started and it ran fine for about 30 seconds, then all of the sudden it ran super rich, died, then the odometer turned to all dashes again and the car would crank over but not fire up.

    One other symptom that I forgot to mention is that when the door is open, the car "bings" like the key is still in the ignition or the lights are still on even though neither are the case?

    Again, thank you so much for the help. This car is freshly ready to roll except this one debilitating and frustrating problem!
     
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  4. 03_TrueBlue_GT

    03_TrueBlue_GT Active Member

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    What would we do without WMBurns?!

    Edit my bad I read it is still causing you issues. Have you thought about replacing the CCRM completely? I had to do it to mine when my A/C was acting up this past fall.
     
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  5. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    The "clicking" from the CCRM area is a sign that the CCRM relays are "bouncing". This symptom is sometime associated with a BAD/poor CCRM ground. Further, I thought your opening posted stated that the CCRM was replaced.

    The cooling fan running while the motor isn't is also a symptom of "no power to the PCM". What powers the PCM? Hint CCRM.

    The cluster displaying all dashed (----) is a sign that the cluster and PCM are not talking to each other. This would be an expected symptom when there's no power to the PCM.

    If you are certain the grounds are good to the CCRM and PCM, then other possible causes could be a bad ignition switch.

    Consider monitoring for +12 volts on the RED ignition wire, The easiest place to monitor is the radio interference capacitor. Also monitor fusees F2.2, F2.34, F1.26, and F1.14 to see if power drops during operation.

    Once stable power and grounds have been confirmed to the PCM, then some thought should be given to a bad PCM.
     
    #5
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  6. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    No, no…I replaced the ignition switch, ignition relay, and ignition 'tumbler'…Hadn't replaced the CCRM…that was kind of my question…


    We got a little deeper into the car tonight and what we found was that when we pulled the I/P fuse, the dinging that was unnecessary stopped, but the car still started without the I/P fuse in at all. Headlights disconnected but still had the same issue. When we checked the ground for the CCRM, the voltage only dropped .10 between the ground and the battery.

    Power to the PCM was very near the battery voltage.

    The weirdest thing is that the 'short' isn't consistent. Car will start perfectly fine at first then die and start exhibiting all of these weird issues….

    It seems like an internal short in the CCRM to me…I have very limited knowledge on this subject, but it seems to me after all the grounds being confirmed good, and the PCM not receiving power consistently from the CCRM, that the PCM or the CCRM are bad…?
     
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  7. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    That was my original plan….But it costs 130 from Rileys and I'd figured that I could get some good ideas from here…after replacing 3 other parts to no avail…I was scared to blow 130 on something to just continue the issue. It seemed like all of the symptoms point to the CCRM to me….but shoot, I am tapped out here
     
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  8. jetmech807

    jetmech807 I get vag sore

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    I'm not a big fan of junkyard electronics, but if you can get a CCRM cheap enough. Might be worth a shot.
     
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  9. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Please confirm the model year of your Mustang. If this is a 99-04 MY, there isn't a separate "ignition relay". For the 96-04 MY, the CCRM performs the job of "ignition relay". Hence why I assume the CCRM was replaced.

    I'm attempting to help you to figure out exactly which parts are bad. See the previous post requesting test information.
     
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  10. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    Been a while since I've posted, but since my last post, nothing has changed! I've tried a CCRM I found online for very little money, and swapped out my alternator for a brand new one...
    To answer your questions Burns, my mustang is a 1999 GT and I had not replaced the CCRM as of the last post, but I purchased a CCRM off the web for a pretty cheap price and it had the exact same issue as before. We had tried all those grounds as you had previously instructed, yet to no avail.

    I had this problem a while back, and ended up replacing the alternator. I did this because the 8 rib belt that we had on the car was far too tight, which we assumedly had ruined it. When we replaced the alternator it fixed the problem for about a month, then it came back...We figured that would be a potential solution so we got a brand new alternator and a much more adequate belt...

    Again, it solved the problem and the car ran perfect for the rest of the day. Starting without issue a few more times that evening. Next morning, car would not start and began exhibiting the exact same issues as before!Does any of this infer point towards a solution? aghhhhhhhhhhhh

    Thanks again for all your help WMBURNS!!
     
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  11. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    I really think your problem is a bad CCRM or PCM ground. However, since you have stated they are good, additional tests are going to be needed to rule this in/out. A set of wiring diagrams are almost required.

    If interested in getting a set for yourself I may be able to help. PM if interested.

    What happened to my suggestion to monitor voltage at fuse F2.2, F2.34, F1.26, and F1.14?
     
    #11
  12. COramprat

    COramprat Drone Driver Mod Dude

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    My thinking if it is intermittent that there is a loose or bad connection somewhere. Whether it be ground or hot. Since you swapped CCRM and still have an issue there is a wiring issue to trace. Fiddling with different wire while trying to trace it may manipulate it enough to make contact then it goes bad again as the engine and car moves. Maybe the alternator is a clue. It grounds to the engine and you seem to correct it briefly when replacing it. Pull and clean that ground...check for continuity with an ohmmeter.
     
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  13. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    Burns, the latest update is that we grounded the alternator since the car has a trick flow track heat top end and a custom alternator bracket.. both are aluminum, which made us think maybe bad alternator ground. (Thanks for the idea COramprat!) Unfortunately it didn't resolve anything. We aren't sure about the PCM and CCRM grounds, we have tried to test the grounds but are uneducated to the more advanced electrical aspects of the car. Today I went out and ran my OBDII on the car to see what codes it was throwing now and was most disturbed...It throw 30+ codes ranging from EGR vacuum and heater circuit codes to cylinder head temp and both high and low circuit 02 as well as both too lean and too rich codes...It's full on freaking out now.
     
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  14. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Just wondering.......Have you "checked" fuses F2.2 and F2.8 in the CJB? Almost certain F2.8 is blown based on the newly reported symptoms.

    Anytime there are a large number of DTC's that suddenly appear one should always ask, "what do these systems have in common". The simplest answer is often that they share a fuse circuit.
     
    #14
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  15. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    Where would I find such fuses? I'm looking online for a fuse diagram but the "f2.2" etc... Are eluding me. Are those the fuses in the under good fuse box?
     
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  16. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    F1=BJB=Battery Junction Box under the hood
    F2=CJB=Central Junction Box located driver's kick panel.

    Therefore, F2.2 would be fuse #2 located in the CJB.
     
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  17. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    Thanks for the education! We hopped down under the CJB and checked all of those fuses. No more than 1 ohm of resistance at each.
    We then checked the main ground under the car. The shop reconnected it to the oil pan, but it was very secure. We then took the dash apart and unplugged the gauge cluster, Looking for shorts in there as well. There was nothing we could see and all grounds were clean and solid. The car exhibited the same issues with the gauge cluster out (clicking and fan running)...
    Does any of this information help?
     
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  18. wmburns

    wmburns SN Certified Technician

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    Likely will need to measure the key off resistance of each of the black and black/white strip wires from the CCRM back to battery negative.

    Recommend disconnecting the positive battery terminal to fully isolate. But sure to use a fresh battery and calibrate the VOM before taking the measurement. This measurement should be a fraction of an Ohm.

    While the CCRM is out, perform a through visual inspection looking for bent/pushed pins. Ensure that all connectors are CLEAN. Recommend using some electrical contact cleaner.

    If the resistance is too high, likely this is the source of the problem.
     
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  19. Tony Blackmer

    Tony Blackmer New Member

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    Did somebody try to put a tune on this car? That is exactly what happens when i use my tuner to put one of the bama tunes on my car. The fans switch's on and the odometer reads all dashes. then the programer flashes the Chip once completed the fans shut off and the odometer goes back to normal. So my guess is that your PCM has gone bad. Or it just might need to be re-flashed.
     
    #19
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  20. SiahNyde

    SiahNyde Member

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    The car was tuned at a shop with a dyno. If I recall correctly, they had to replace the PCM because it wasn't communicating with their software...It wasn't just a tune off of a handheld. I'm thinking at this point, that I should take it to a Ford dealership...I'm not getting anywhere this way!!
     
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