Out Of Nowhere, No Power, Sputters & Backfires. Same Thing At Idle Under No Load?

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by CNK, May 25, 2013.


  1. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    I was driving my 91 mustang for about an hour. even sat in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes. Everything was absolutely fine. Turned the last corner to go home, and the car seemed to sputter as if it was gonna run out of gas (As I knew the gas was close to being empty), so I immediately went to the gas station, left it running while putting gas in it. Drove fine to the gas station, idled fine at the gas station, when finished and went to pull away from the gas station, big sputter & backfire, and complete power loss. Regardless of rpm, load, in gear or in idle. I sputtered and backfired around the block to the house never getting over 3 mph, never get any rpm up, just bump along and not trying to stall. This was late at night.

    Next morning got up, cranked the car up and same things.

    Please advise, cause I have no idea where this even started!!!
     
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  2. TOOLOW91

    TOOLOW91 Mustang Master

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    check intake tube to make sure it didn't come off the throttle body or that you didn't have a vacc line that popped off


    Sent from my iPhone using my fingers
     
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  3. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    I just found the upper check valve on the end of the hard line that would run to the smog pump broken apart.

    I'm assuming that may cause this?
     
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  4. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

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    yep.
     
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  5. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    Replaced the air pump check valve that was broken. Car ran great for 10 minutes, then the same power loss occured, and now won't even crank. Will turn over, but not light off???
     
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  6. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

    A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.


    Revised 12-Dec-2011 to replace 10 pin salt & pepper connector graphic.

    All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

    Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

    1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
    Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

    No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
    B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
    C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
    D.) Coil
    E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
    86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
    F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
    86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
    94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
    Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
    Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
    94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
    H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
    In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
    In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
    You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
    I.) Computer. Don’t replace the computer just because you don’t understand how it works. Computers seldom fail, it usually is a sensor or wiring problem that causes the problems.
    J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
    K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red/blue wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.

    Wiring Diagrams:

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


    AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

    2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
    A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
    B.) Distributor cap
    C.) Rotor
    D.) Spark Plug wires
    E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

    3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
    Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

    Two reasons:
    1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
    2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
    If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

    Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 2-4 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.

    [​IMG]

    If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


    4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
    B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
    C.) Clogged fuel filter
    D.) Failed fuel pump
    E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
    91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
    The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
    94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
    F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

    5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
    A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
    A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.

    I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
    B.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
    C.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).

    See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
    [​IMG]
    The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.


    D.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
    E.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
    On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
    It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

    6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
    A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
    B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
    C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
    D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
    HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
    Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
    E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
    F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.



    After you have got it running, dump the codes...
    Dump the codes: Codes may be present even if the Check Engine Light (CEL) isn't on.

    Dumping the computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

    Revised 26-July-2011. Added need to make sure the clutch is pressed when dumping codes.

    Codes may be present even if the check engine light hasn’t come on, so be sure to check for them.

    Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

    Post the codes you get and I will post 86-93 model 5.0 Mustang specific code definitions and fixes. I do not have a complete listing for 94-95 model 5.0 Mustangs at this time.

    Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. On a manual transmission car, be sure to press the clutch to the floor.
    Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

    [​IMG]

    The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

    89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

    [​IMG]

    The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


    WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

    What to expect:
    You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and driveablity problems

    Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

    Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, and clutch (if present) is pressed to the floor, and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

    Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

    Your 86-88 5.0 won't have a working Check Engine Light, so you'll need a test light.
    See AutoZone Part Number: 25886 , $10
    [​IMG]



    Alternate methods:
    For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

    Or for a nicer scanner see Equus - Digital Ford Code Reader (3145) – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30-$36.
     
    #6
  7. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    Only orange spark when performing step 1, No start with removal of spout.

    Is orange spark ok, or does it have to he the big blue spark?
     
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  8. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Big fat blue spark.

    Try Step #3 and let us know what happens.
     
    #8
  9. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard
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    good cranking? mine did this when the alternator quit and was running off battery. once bltage got too low, ran real crappy
     
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  10. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    Madspeed:
    It cranks over just fine, till I did run the battery down trying to crank it without it starting, LOL

    jrichker:
    WHen I accomplish Step 3, I will repost, Thanks
     
    #10
  11. Bullitt95

    Bullitt95 Active Member

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    Sounds like your spark has died and the backfiring in the exhaust is due to unburnt fuel. The most likely culprits are either the TFI module or the PIP sensor so if you still have the original 22 year-old distributor, just replace it with a brand new one.
     
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  12. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    Changed out coil, still same small orange spark at coil wire distributor end, still no light off. Sprayed ether into the throttle body, still no light off. It's my assumption to change out the coil wire now, but its just too hot and another trip to the store I really don't feel like doing at the moment.

    Any other suggestions?
     
    #12
  13. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    See step 1 K.
    Check the red/green wire on the coil for 12 volts when the ignition switch is in the Run position and then again when it is in the Start position.

    Diagrams courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

    Ignition switch wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

    Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif


    Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

    HVAC vacuum diagram
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

    TFI module differences & pin out
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

    Fuse box layout
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif

    87-92 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang87-92 PowerWindowWiring.gif

    93 power window wiring
    http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang93PowerWindows.gif
     
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  14. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    Seem to only be getting 8-10 volts at the coil with the key in both positions?
     
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  15. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    I would replace the ignition switch at this point.

    Some of the symptoms of ignition switch problems are things that don’t work or are intermittent like radio, turn signals, wipers or heater.

    There was a FREE recall on Ford ignition switches. They overheat and sometimes catch fire. That burns up the steering column and sometimes the car interior. Since this is very old information, you may not be able to get the switch replaced for free anymore. The auto parts stores sell the switches for $13-$15.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Saleen0679 was nice enough to dig this up for us awhile back: Replace a 1979-1993 Ignition Switch Assembly
     
    #15
  16. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    I've replaced the ignition switch about a year ago, I have no secondary issues concerning the ignition switch. When my switch was faulty last time i did have those secondary issues to include a few times where the contacts wouldn't meet and the car wouldn't even turn over. This one has now issues turning the car over, it just wont light off. I can turn the keys as many times as I need to till the battery actually starts dying from trying too many times.
     
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  17. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL
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    Look at the diagrams I posted earlier. There isn't much between the battery and the ignition coil except the ignition switch, a fuse link in the ignition wiring harness and some wiring. Check the voltage going into and coming out of the ignition switch and see what you get.
     
    #17
  18. 7991LXnSHO

    7991LXnSHO Well-Known Member

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    It is strange this would happen after a low tank and refuelling. I would have replaced the fuel filter, which running a bit after sitting even sounds like. I would have still been stranded.
     
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  19. CNK

    CNK New Member

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    So today I checked for power at the coil and so forth and I did have my 12 volts, I did have spark at the distributor end of the coil wire. I bought new wires and a spare coil wire to check if that spark was any different with new wires, it was NOT. What I did find is that I lost spark at #1 plug regardless of new or old wires. So then I look to the distributor, I pull the distributor cap, and EVERYTHING is corroded, the points, the rotor tip, and even the stator.

    What is recommended to cleaning this corrosion? Preferably without having to pull the distributor. It is an MSD distributor.

    Any help would be appreciated.
     
    #19
  20. stykthyn

    stykthyn Commander of the snuggie cultists

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    I would pull the MSD piece and replace it with a stocker. The MSD distributors are notorious for crapping out.
     
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