Please help me settle this arguement!

Discussion in '1974 - 1978 Mustang II Talk & Tech' started by Eos, Jul 29, 2005.

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  1. Eos

    Eos Oh Heather Oh yeah... I want your pink taco

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    Okay my dad and I are having this long debate about the rear end on my car. My car has the stock 13 in wheels on it that are soon to be changed to 15x8's on the back. Now my major concern is traction, getting it to hook up at the track is very important for getting my times down. Now my dad is talking about sending the car to the shop to get the differintial seal changed because it's leaking, and while it's in there he wants to have gear's put in it. My preference is around 3.73's. NOW he belives that if we put 15 inch wheels on the back then we have to put lower gears in it to improve the way its hooking up at the track. But my car doesn't even have trac-lok It's a one wheel wonder. So I've been trying to tell him 15's and lower gears aren't going to help much if the power isn't getting put down through both tires. So he thinks that we don't need to worry about getting trac loc right now because the gears are going to fix a lot. I say Trac loc or nothing at all. If we don't do both at the same time, I don't want gears in the car until it has the locker. Please someone please help me explain this! :fuss: :bang: :bang:
     
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  2. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE!
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    Whose paying for all this?
     
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  3. Eos

    Eos Oh Heather Oh yeah... I want your pink taco

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    He wants to pay for the gears, If he doesnt want to buy T lock instead of gears, I will let him pay for the gears and I'll pay for the T lock, But please that wasn't the question. I just need to convince him that it doesn't go the way he thinks.
     
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  4. 77sleeper

    77sleeper GO BUCS!
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    rim diameter/tire width has 0 to do with gear ratio. it is all about total tire height which if done properly will be nearly identical

    go with wider tires and gears, throw in a powertrax later on when you are ready. powertrax does not require you to re index the gears
     
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  5. Eos

    Eos Oh Heather Oh yeah... I want your pink taco

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    Whats powertrax? Track lock?
     
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  6. itsaMustangtoo

    itsaMustangtoo New Member

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    You are right , gearing has nothing to do with traction. I had a single wheel squealer that hooked up ok with 13" wheels and n-50 supercharger tires AND TRACTION BARS !! Are you running any traction bars now? Be careful of gear selection-3:73's are fairly low. I have 3:73's now with 16" wheels and a c-4 3 speed auto and she tachs around 3000 rpm @ 60 mph. You might want to opt for 3:27 or 3:08's if you like to drive around more than race. Good luck and get the trac-loc :)
     
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  7. Mustangj

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    http://www.powertrax.com/noslip.html

    I agree with Sleeper! The powertrax unit replaces your spider gears and makes your rear axle locking. Posi, Limited slip, and twin grip are all just different copy righted names by different manufactures for a "locking differential". Generally a locking differential senses slipage and "locks" the two rear axles togeather so you have maximum traction. Spin both hoops instead of the dreaded "one wheel peel" :D
    The kool thing about the Powertrax unit is you can use your existing non posi carrier and as mentioned before, you do not up-set the gear lash. I would price the powertrax unit (They are pretty cheap) if you can not afford it, it can always be put in latter. Personally I would just save enough bling to do both at once. Not that it is a big deal to go in there twice, but if your paying some dude by the hour plus the cost of new diff lube :shrug:
     
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  8. Eos

    Eos Oh Heather Oh yeah... I want your pink taco

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    i couldnt find a price for the powertrax how much is it.
     
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  9. Mustangj

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    Linkage :D

    http://store.summitracing.com/defau...earchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp

    http://store.summitracing.com/defau...earchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp

    http://www.powertrax.com/lockright.html

    I would like to say I did it all for you, but I am looking to put one of these babies in the Mach so......

    Anyway looks like the Powertrax is smooth and quiet and the lock-right is noisy and brutal. In sticking with my car's theme quick, cheap and brutal, I am going for the noisy clunking manly Lock-Right :D At the speed shop and the differential shop I worked at, I sold the Lock-Right and the customers had all positive feed-back on them. The Lock-Right makes clinking noises when you go around corners. Your Stereo, exhaust or yapping boy friend? should drone out the noise :shrug: Long week-end in Canada if you want to drop by the garage, I will put it in for you :D HeHem the Lock-Right that is.........
     
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  10. Mustangj

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    The summit links sucked! I thought the link would take you right to the proper part. To get to the proper part follow my lame directions :rolleyes:

    http://summitracing.com/

    Go to the summit sight

    Put "Lock-right" in the "search" box cliick

    Click "Ford"

    Click "Ford 8"

    Click "Mustang"

    Happy two wheel burn-outs :banana:
     
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  11. Mustangj

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    Powertrax $429.95 (at Summit)
    Lock-Right $219.95 (at Summit)

    Both units will work the same but the Lock-Right is loud! I just checked Summit because it is big and well known, you may want to check Jegs or who ever sponsers Stangnet or your local speed shop :shrug:
     
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  12. Eos

    Eos Oh Heather Oh yeah... I want your pink taco

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    I'll opt for the cheaper one. lol Thank you.
     
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  13. 77sleeper

    77sleeper GO BUCS!
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    Eos has a T-5 swapped in by-the-bye, Eos you will have to get 3.80:1s
     
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  14. Dano78

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    Eh, if dad's footing the bill, there's no arguing there. :nonono: If you don't like it, wait till it's done and then pullit out, hock it, and put what you want back in. :D (not that I've ever done this....)

    I agree with what some others are saying... the trac-lok is really only a band aid to the common problem... traction loss. For example, say you put 5.14 gears in your II and then put 29x12.50-15 Mickey Thompson Sportsmans on the II as well. You think you're gonna need that track-lok? Nope. You have PLENTY of overall tire surface contacting the pavement in ratio to your power output. Hence the reason why most supercharged pro-street cars are tubbed. Naturally its soooo much easier to just toss in a track-lok than to tub a car or learn to dial in and launch a dead legger, and that's what people do. It's just become common practice. In plain english, you're only loosing traction because too much power in relation to traction is being applied. Tuning the driving style can actually curb this problem. Only difference is the race isn't decided in the first 60' but rather at the 1320' mark.

    In all reality, trac-locs were only initially designed to aid in traction loss due to irregular or unstable road surfaces... not launching an overpowered vehicle...

    And furthermore- I recomment the Lock-Right as I've has super success in off road trucks I've installed them into. Definately nice units. They are pretty stiff units but certainly won't go dead legged when you hammer down. :nice:
     
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  15. 1badII

    1badII Member

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    Get 3.80's, especially since you have overdrive, and definately a Lock-Right, Trac-Lock, or Detroit Locker. DO NOT get an Auburn! I went with an Auburn in mine, and it's about as good as a worn out Trac-Lock. It will only spin both tires if I'm going straight.
     
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  16. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE!
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    Let him pay for the gears?

    Me thinks you thinks yourself a Princess.

    And has it occured to you that it doesn't go the way you think either?

    So, if it comes down to an all or nothing , if you were my kid, guess what you would be getting.?


    One of the beauties of the Ford removable carrier, IE the 8 and 9", is the chunk doesn't have to be removed to replace the pinion seal. Only the pinion needs removed. I've seen people replace the seal without even pulling the pinion but thats shoddy work.

    Then you have the drive line vibration that was so bad it took out the rear U-Joint and later the seal. Far as I know you havent truly addressed this. That would be the first thing I worked on.


    Do you know what makes a one wheeled wonder? Axle lift. The drive shaft applies force to the pinion which rotates the axle about the pinion that plants the left tire and lifts the right tire. All other things being equal a numerically lower gear rotates the axle about the pinion to a greater degree and a numerically higher gear to a lesser degree.

    Now, with the same gear set and a tire that hooks better the axle will rotate about the pinion to a greater degree because the shaft can apply more force before breakout.

    The net effect of going to wider tires with the same gears will probably (because nothings certine) be a lower ET, but not as low an ET as an axle that's lifting less and thus doing a better plant on the right tire.

    Your Father is correct.

    I'm with Dano on this: Naturally its soooo much easier to just toss in a track-lok than to ... learn to dial in and launch a dead legger ... I submit people can't tune because they don't really know how things work, and thus can't see how one issue plays against the other.


    Let's look at this tire issue. Megan is going to a 15x8 rim, which I think is a waste of money unless first going to a 5 bolt rear, and going to a 5 bolt rear is useless unless ditching that damned MII housing and rubber perch crap, but I digress.

    I can't see the point of going to a 15" rim and keeping tires of the dsame diameter, the II has never looked right with those dinkey damned 195/70-13 tires.

    So lets assume ( I know, Ass-U-Me ) Megans going to fill out her wheel wells, a larger diameter tire will yield greater traction. This isn't theory, this happens though it may take a Pro driver to see it.

    Static and dynamic friction is dependent on only two factors: Force and coefficent of friction. Contact area isn't a factor when in theory.

    BUT: Road/ track imperfections matter less with a larger diameter tire thus greater (forward) traction. Let's move to an extreme example to illustrate this. You have a 2" diameter tire moving over a 1" square obstacle. That tire is going to have to stop forward motion and start climbing before it can once again move forward. Now take a 26" diameter tire. Forward motion never stops, even if it's a steel wheel.

    This is the same concept that allows larger tires to roll easier than tires of lesser diameter.

    I admit that tire compound, rim size and tread width and aspect ratio, construction of carcass, all play a part.

    Worry about getting basic concepts down first.
     
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  17. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE!
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    You know what's funny?

    When I went to a Granada / Versailles rear I started laying Posi with an open diff.

    That is, unless I hammered it so hard I lifted the right tire off the pavement.*

    I wonder why that is?

    * Death to an 11" clutch though.
     
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  18. Power Surge

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    I can't believe some of you guys are actually telling her to NOT do the traction lock, but to "tune" the one legger for better traction. That's the most retarted thing I've every heard. It obvious that the people making those statements don't spend much time doing real racing (as opposed to bench racing). :nonono:
     
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  19. Joeverb

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    I would definitely go with some sort of trac loc. The lower gear and traction will drop your ET significantly. My guess is it will put you solidly in the 14s. With the manual tranny.....If you drive it like you stole it, the 8" wont hold. People will argue the glory of the 8" ford all day....because its what they have and they cant afford a conversion right now, budgets suck...... but the 8" will die if you launch with the t5 like you mean it AND get solid traction. The 8" is the weak link in your drivetrain.

    I would try and spend as little as possible so its not as painful if it all goes south. You should be able to dig up a 3.55 8" third member around there for under $100. They go for $50 around here and 3.55s are close enough to the 3.80 gear ratio folks are recommending for you without having to spend $130 for a gear set and $150 plus for setup. The traction device is up to you. I like the lunchbox lockers in my jeep. Never tried one in a high horsepower application. But i have no doubt they would be stronger than the actual ford trac loc unit for the 8". Its obviously the cheapest way to go since you can skip the gear setup. Anyway ~$250 3.55s with a lockright vs ~$500 with new gears, setup and a lockright. I would cry less over the destroyed $250 setup. With all that said, if you stay conservative on your launch or maintain some tirespin (no slicks), it'll probably hold you for awhile.
     
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  20. Wart

    Wart I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE!
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    I'll let this pass.



    Well, back in the day .....

    We learned how to make our suspensions work the best we could with an open diff. That way we tended not to smoke traction controol rears when we installed them.

    Fact is, I bet most of the problems people have with their differentials these days could be directly attributed to their not doing the base work of getting their suspensions to work right in the first place.

    I've seen the very advice given by Dano and Myself given by people who've won National Titles.

    I guess their bench racers, Eh?

    If one isn't lazy and does their work and gets their car to hook with an open rear then a traction center is the cherry on top of hte sunday.

    If a traction controol rear is the first thing they do, well, then they have a cherry in the bottom of an empty bowl.

    Hell of it is, with all the marketing and hype and bolt ons these days people are driving around bowls with nothing but cherries and no icecream or chocolate syrup or whipped cream or sprinkles. And they've been so blinded they don't even know it.


    If you care to think about it you'll see where Dano and I are right.
     
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