Progress Thread Project Copper Can

[MikeH686]

Tea stage 1 I know I have to go with a nitrous custom cam. When I mean victor jr I'm gonna get a 4150 throttle body my buddy did the same kit on his 2000gt I want to stay fuel injected as far as the electrical issues they are done it ended up being the distributors pickup. I have a stock fuel system but right now have 30 lb injectors and have a set of flow checked 42s ready to go in. It is a 90% kit just need a custom down pipe. My exhaust system now is bassani long tubes and x pipe to a set of Mac Pro dumps. I am still auto and yes my compression is low but from the guys I've talked to is that being the lower compression it would be "safer" compared to a 11:1 ratio car. The only downside is running the car on motor being lower compression. I think I got all your questions lol

 

[TOOLOW91]

Someone help me out here to what I should do with the car. I'm torn between going and slapping the turbo on the car or to nitrous the car now go with a victor jr intake and a induction solutions plate kit

Vic junior unless smoothed out has unequal fuel distribution issues with the way the inner ports are - I think @84Ttop can shed more light on this


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

 

[MikeH686]

Yeah let's talk about this because I need to weigh the odds out about everything

 

[A5literMan]

My vote would be the nitrous route. But a few things I can think of off the top of my head. Victor Jr isn't as good as a super Vic EFI. The Vic Jr isn't bad if ported properly but the super Vic has less fuel distribution issues(from my research no actual expierience). Being a lower compression motor will limit some of your cam choices. Yes it's safer than a high compression motor but nitrous actually likes a little compression. Again not a deal breaker and street driving would be a little soft(without nitrous). To maximize this effort you're going to need a good cam,torque converter,and I recommend an ecu upgrade(I know you can chip it). Also the intake/tc/cam is going to want a descent rear gear(4.10 or steeper). Are you just going to use a wet kit or try running the nitrous fuel enrichment through the ecu(dry kit). A 255 pump/stock fuel system would be enough for around a 500 or so nitrous motor. After that you should look into an upgrade(obviously engine block also).

 

[TOOLOW91]

Boost .... im telling you its like crack !

 

[84Ttop]

Vic junior unless smoothed out has unequal fuel distribution issues with the way the inner ports are - I think @84Ttop can shed more light on this


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

This applies much more to boosted applications than Nitrous or N/A applications only due to the increased amount of airflow (it gets exponentially worse as the air flow increases)

@MikeH686 Isn't the motor pretty low compression wise? If memory serves me correctly and that is the case, forced induction whether it is Vortech or other:shutup: is the way to go

 

[Noobz347]

Someone help me out here to what I should do with the car. I'm torn between going and slapping the turbo on the car or to nitrous the car now go with a victor jr intake and a induction solutions plate kit

IMO, those are the two worst choices.

Nobody "slaps" a turbo onto anything that's expected to be trouble and maintenance free.
Nitrous? I prefer my power to be available always versus part time.

Why these choices over an after-cooled blower kit? Easier to install, makes great power, and is generally more reliable.

 

[MikeH686]

Yeah not doing any supercharged system I'm throwing that out of the window, no offense @84Ttop it's just not for me. I understand the slapping the turbo was just a figure of speech lol. With the turbo I need down pipe made bigger injectors then the 42s I have now, full standalone system, but idk I'm really throwing around the idea if I sell the turbo kit I can get the intake and nitrous kit and all I would have to get is a 4150 elbow to throttle body to continue running efi and a tune.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

How can a direct port injected intake manifold have distribution issues?

I can see how that would be the issue if you were using a plate N20 system, since the spray nozzles are sandwiched between the upper, and lower and the enrichment fuel has to travel through the plenum, and the runners. But with a forced induction system, how can there be any less fuel delivered at any port when the injectors are all the same distance from the intake valve?

If this was a carbureted system, and that was a typical Vic/Super Vic, then I'd agree that runners 1,4,5, and 8 get starved. (sometimes 7 and 8) because of the longer runners off the plenum, and it wouldn't matter whether there was a plate nitrous system under that carb, or a "hat" on top getting blown through,.....those cylinders are typically a problem when there is old school tech fueling the engine.

Nitrous is a pain in the ass. Simply because it runs out. It's almost comical to see how many bottles of the stuff that N20 racers bring to the track ( or how many 50 pound refill bottles big budget N20 racers bring to the track) to be sure that the two or three bottles they are carrying in the car are full all the time.

Turbo baby. Specifically Chinee turbo of the GT 45 variant. If you are a capable fabricator you can Chine-if-icate a system together for well below 1000.00, and there are plenty of examples of that stuff working perfect to offset the examples of it not.

Unless you are class racing in some form of H/U racing, I'd ditch the power adder altogether. If you bracket race, you don't get paid one cent more to win whether the car goes an 11.0 or an 10.0, so why add the potential for tire spin, and inconsistency?

 

[TOOLOW91]

How can a direct port injected intake manifold have distribution issues?

I can see how that would be the issue if you were using a plate N20 system, since the spray nozzles are sandwiched between the upper, and lower and the enrichment fuel has to travel through the plenum, and the runners. But with a forced induction system, how can there be any less fuel delivered at any port when the injectors are all the same distance from the intake valve?

If this was a carbureted system, and that was a typical Vic/Super Vic, then I'd agree that runners 1,4,5, and 8 get starved. (sometimes 7 and 8) because of the longer runners off the plenum, and it wouldn't matter whether there was a plate nitrous system under that carb, or a "hat" on top getting blown through,.....those cylinders are typically a problem when there is old school tech fueling the engine.

Nitrous is a pain in the ass. Simply because it runs out. It's almost comical to see how many bottles of the stuff that N20 racers bring to the track ( or how many 50 pound refill bottles big budget N20 racers bring to the track) to be sure that the two or three bottles they are carrying in the car are full all the time.

Turbo baby. Specifically Chinee turbo of the GT 45 variant. If you are a capable fabricator you can Chine-if-icate a system together for well below 1000.00, and there are plenty of examples of that stuff working perfect to offset the examples of it not.

Unless you are class racing in some form of H/U racing, I'd ditch the power adder altogether. If you bracket race, you don't get paid one cent more to win whether the car goes an 11.0 or an 10.0, so why add the potential for tire spin, and inconsistency?

We're talking regular fuel distribution issues on a Vic or super Vic with injector bungs welded in . 4150 elbow with throttle body and a induction solutions plate was what he was looking to run.


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

 

[Noobz347]

Yeah not doing any supercharged system I'm throwing that out of the window, no offense @84Ttop it's just not for me. I understand the slapping the turbo was just a figure of speech lol. With the turbo I need down pipe made bigger injectors then the 42s I have now, full standalone system, but idk I'm really throwing around the idea if I sell the turbo kit I can get the intake and nitrous kit and all I would have to get is a 4150 elbow to throttle body to continue running efi and a tune.

Is it the "bling" factor you're looking for? If so, I once saw twin, remote mounted turbos under the rear seat pans.

It was something else. Everyone that said there wasn't enough heat in the exhaust to make this work, had to eat a lot of werdz. hehe

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

We're talking regular fuel distribution issues on a Vic or super Vic with injector bungs welded in . 4150 elbow with throttle body and a induction solutions plate was what he was looking to run.


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

And again,......how does that change when the injectors are all the same distance from the I valve? All that manifold is doing before that is directing air, w/o the extra burden of having to keep fuel atomized.

 

[Boosted92LX]

I think the bang for the buck argument for turbo vs. blower is valid. There are several points to consider.. reliability is always thrown out there to the point of being cliché, but to be honest, I've had N/A cars that broke as much stuff. The difference for me is now, I'm 25 years into a time consuming career, a father of four, and married.. so my spare time for wrenching is nill. If things were different, my car would be going. I feel that if you plan on sticking with a stock block the rest of your life, a blower is the way to go. It'll easily exceed the limits of the block, and it's simple. However, if you are looking to build a 600-1000 hp car and drive it on the street, the turbo deserves a good look, because it is fact that for a given wheel/housing size, a turbo will give you an easy 100 lbft more torque and more power to boot. You can make a boatload of power with a blower, no doubt... But the turbo will make more. It's proven. That's why I chose it.

 

[Noobz347]

You can make a boatload of power with a blower, no doubt... But the turbo will make more. It's proven. That's why I chose it.

This is debatable. If all you're looking for is a peak HP number then this might be true. Otherwise, power across the entire band gets the nod and turbos are not always the clear winner. It really depends on where in the power band, you spend the majority of your time and just how "nifty" your turbo setup really is. The same can be said for a blower combo.

 

[84Ttop]

How can a direct port injected intake manifold have distribution issues?

I can see how that would be the issue if you were using a plate N20 system, since the spray nozzles are sandwiched between the upper, and lower and the enrichment fuel has to travel through the plenum, and the runners. But with a forced induction system, how can there be any less fuel delivered at any port when the injectors are all the same distance from the intake valve?

If this was a carbureted system, and that was a typical Vic/Super Vic, then I'd agree that runners 1,4,5, and 8 get starved. (sometimes 7 and 8) because of the longer runners off the plenum, and it wouldn't matter whether there was a plate nitrous system under that carb, or a "hat" on top getting blown through,.....those cylinders are typically a problem when there is old school tech fueling the engine.

Nitrous is a pain in the ass. Simply because it runs out. It's almost comical to see how many bottles of the stuff that N20 racers bring to the track ( or how many 50 pound refill bottles big budget N20 racers bring to the track) to be sure that the two or three bottles they are carrying in the car are full all the time.

Turbo baby. Specifically Chinee turbo of the GT 45 variant. If you are a capable fabricator you can Chine-if-icate a system together for well below 1000.00, and there are plenty of examples of that stuff working perfect to offset the examples of it not.

Unless you are class racing in some form of H/U racing, I'd ditch the power adder altogether. If you bracket race, you don't get paid one cent more to win whether the car goes an 11.0 or an 10.0, so why add the potential for tire spin, and inconsistency?

It's less of a fuel distribution issue and more of an airflow issue. Because varying amounts of air make it into each cylinder fuel loads need to be adjusted. It's my experience that edelbrock does a pass poor job at getting the long runners to flow as well as the short runners on a spider intake. The airflow problem gets worse as you try to move more air through it in my experience

 

[A5literMan]

I don't mean this as a slam to anybody running a turbo setup but every turbo car I've seen spends way more "down time" than a nitrous setup. Street car/occasional track pass I say nitrous/blower. Turbos seem to be a major pita to me.

If you feel like starting over I would think about a stroker 351 based build. Stock roller block is good to around 7-800 hp. With some descent parts you could have a 408 built for well under 10k(installed). Run pump gas and make around 500rwhp. Always power available that is capable of low 10sec et's. And if that's not fast enough you could hit it with small shot and go 9's. Sell the 347 parts/turbo etc and you'd be on your way to that type of build. Just an idea.

 

[TOOLOW91]

And again,......how does that change when the injectors are all the same distance from the I valve? All that manifold is doing before that is directing air, w/o the extra burden of having to keep fuel atomized.

That's why I tagged nick because I know he knows exclusively - I have a friend here that runs 275 went through the same thing. I thought it was more of a fuel distribution issue not an air issue . But learning as always .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

 

[Boosted92LX]

This is debatable. If all you're looking for is a peak HP number then this might be true. Otherwise, power across the entire band gets the nod and turbos are not always the clear winner. It really depends on where in the power band, you spend the majority of your time and just how "nifty" your turbo setup really is. The same can be said for a blower combo.

I don't mean this as a slam to anybody running a turbo setup but every turbo car I've seen spends way more "down time" than a nitrous setup. Street car/occasional track pass I say nitrous/blower. Turbos seem to be a major pita to me.

If you feel like starting over I would think about a stroker 351 based build. Stock roller block is good to around 7-800 hp. With some descent parts you could have a 408 built for well under 10k(installed). Run pump gas and make around 500rwhp. Always power available that is capable of low 10sec et's. And if that's not fast enough you could hit it with small shot and go 9's. Sell the 347 parts/turbo etc and you'd be on your way to that type of build. Just an idea.

Welp.. it's kinda like women I suppose. Blondes, brunettes, or red heads? Which is best? Is there really a right answer? Some will give you more maintenance issues, some will bleed ya dry quicker.. all are fun in the "power band.."

 

[MikeH686]

Yeah I see what you mean about it being more an airflow issue but I plan on running induction solutions Saturday night plate system. I do like the fact that when you tune it it's done, not like turbos you have to keep tweaking it every now and again. I don't plan on going to the extreme with any system I'm not a big money bag like nick @84Ttop I have seen it also where guys have more issues with forced induction then with say nitrous. Only things I've seen go wrong with nitrous is solenoid a sticking or not coming on. Turbos have boost creep along with added cylinder pressure also. Maybe I'm just being hard headed everyone says that blowers are the easiest but it seems that nitrous is just as easy. Where is Derek at? @srtthis

 

[A5literMan]

Well I can say bad things happen if the fuel solenoid doesn't come on lol. Buddy melted 4 Pistons last year when it happened to him. Now the motor ran for 8 seasons with hundreds of nitrous passes. Stuff happens and crap gets broken no matter what combo you run. Nitrous is fairly easy to tune. Like boosted stated above- different strokes for different folks. I like the nitrous/single plane idea the most because its different,easy(relatively speaking),and I'm the most familiar with it. If using a wet system you don't need a standalone ecu etc. very basic tuning. If you're not going to the track very often though it's kind of worthless. Street tires won't hook on the street and it's an instant "on".