Are you running the Esky 1000 mAh packs? Not that it really makes a difference....but they are definately on the cheaper side and less reliable of the lipos out there. LiPos are sort of black magic. As ten people the rules of lipos, and you will get 11 opinions.....so take mine with a grain of salt. Mine are based on experience with my particular setups. LiPos are NOT NiCads or NiMH batteries, and thus don't behave as such. LiPos have very high energy density, but lack the robustness of other chemistries. LiPos operate in "Packs" of single cells. Everything related to a LiPo boils down to the single cell. A single cell has a narrow band for operating voltage....3.0 volts (empty) to 4.2 volts (charged). You run into trouble when you exceed either of those. Read trouble as....fire. They don't have "Memory" either. Discharging and recharging won't make a difference, and it doesn't matter if you partially discharge a pack and then recharge right away. SOME packs are shipped with stabilizer chemicals in the cells for shipping that do "burn" off during use. You may see new packs gain performance with a few light break-in cycles...but not all packs have this. The other issue is that RC LiPos don't contain any safety circuits to regulate this voltage tolerance. Your laptops, cells..etc all have safety circuits on the batteries to control voltages during discharge and charge. In RC, that function is split between the Speed Control (Discharge) and the Charger (Charge) LiPos, espeically high discharge ones used in RC, breakdown over time. The chemistry just starts breaking down. Technically, the internal resistance of a cell increases. It happens more quickly when they are warm/hot and when they are fully charged. Rules of thumb with LiPos : - Only charge at 1C. (1000mAh battery @ 1amp, 2200 mAh battery @2.2 amps etc) - Don't keep a LiPo charged for too long if your not going to use it. I tend to keep them charged for a week at a time, but if they are going to sit longer, I keep them discharged. - Keep battery temp as low as possible during discharge. I tend to get a bit nervous around the 130*. If they are getting too hot, I'll decrease headspeed, shorten my flights, not fly as hard.......Common belief is that ~140F is the "Too Hot" point - Store batteries in a cool place. Don't store them in a garage that gets hot. Some Manufactures even reccommend the freezer if they are going to sit for a long time. - LiPos go high order when they are punctured. At that point, the Lithium is exposed to moisture and chemicals mix, producing hydrogen and igniting. A "Puffed" LiPo has started generating gasses and is more susceptible to going high order. BE CAREFUL WITH A PUFFED LIPO.....Especially one that doesn't "deflate" when it gets cooler. Sounds like your batteries are shot. If they are the stock batteries (1000 mAh, 10C) they are slightly undersized to begin with. They will only produce 10 amps continous, and the HBKII will suck ~13-20 amps on a brushless setup....thus why the batteries get so hot. Typically, I get around 75-100 cycles out of cheaper chinese batteries I fly, but towards the end, they are tired feeling. 3.80 volts per cell (11.4 volts for a 3cell pack) is usually referenced as a "Storage" voltage. With bigger/expensive chargers, you can set it to that voltage and it will stop there. With the ESky one....I'd recommend taking a fully charged pack and flying only half of what you normally fly to get to that point. Ok...that's a long enough post. Later!
It was the 1000mah pack. I ordered to Mega Pack 1300mah 15C packs. I know there are mixed reviews about this brand, but most of them seem to be just fine for my usage. I typically run a pack out to where the copter no longer lifts with full power.....then charge it back up. I'll have to reread the rest of that tech-babble when I've got less rum in me. Time to fly my co-ax Rookie....you're da man dude. I appreciate your heli help.
MMMMMM, Rum....... A few years ago, there was a valid argument for brand name LiPos versus cheaper versions. These days, everyone is getting their LiPo cells for their packs from the same few manufactures, and the QA on the cells has gotten better and more consistent. End result, where as a few years ago, a cheap no-name battery pack would be a paperweight before you blinked, these days there is little to no performance difference between brands. The major difference, save the cutting technology ones, is the warranty and customer support pffered. 1300 mAh 15C pack will get you 19.5 amps continous. Burst (10s or less) is probably ~20-25C, or ~26-30 amps. A little on the light side if you were going to thrash the heli (I'll see ~35-40 amps in my Trex when really giving it a beating)...but more than adequate for basic hovering and light sport flying. Your not doing yourself any favors flying until you can't lift off before stopping, but in a 300 class (HBKII) or a 450 class (Trex, Shark) with mild setups, your power train will be starved before the battery is discharged too low. Meaning, you may be shortening their life, but your not doing so dangerously. Typically, you want to only discharge ~80% of the pack at a time. To get the best life, you should always leave ~20% charge on the packs. This is because a LiPo discharge is sort of like a sideways "S". Initially, the voltage is hight (12.6 volts) it quickly drops to ~11.1 volts under load and maintains that voltage for a significant duration...as the battery begins to run out of capacity, it drops off quickly from that 11.1 volts to your cutoff point ~9 volts. The drop off point is variable between packs, but typically is around the 90% mark. This is where the significant amount of heat is created. By limiting the heat, your able to extend the life....or that's the thought. The better the quality of the pack, the flatter the voltage is between when it initially drops off to when it finally drops off. A perfect battery would maintain 11.1 volts no matter what...but realistically it is ~11.7 volts to ~10.8 volts with countless minute spikes during times where your hitting the power system for extra punch. Also, an interesting side note, is that there is a direct relationship between the batteries, methods and technology used in this hobby and the new battery packs being used in Electric vehicles. Hell, one guy that I have gotten some packs from and have worked with in my daily job developed the circuitry for balancing and charging the packs in the Tesla.
Ummm....so after 8 cokes and rums.....well a couple of those were Mango rum with Sprite....Yum Yum. Anyways.....I gather that you're telling me that with my copter....a smaller and less powerful, running until it doesn't lift with full power is ok. I get what you're saying about packs. When I first bought mine, I was a regular on one of the RC forums.....they have a thread on my heli that is way longer than any thread here. I figure those guys know what they're talking about. My goal is to get mine back to a point where I can continue my hover practice. I really haven't flown her in at least a year. I figured two of those packs will keep me flying at least. A funny side note....my buddy next door has always been peaked by my RC toys. I let him drive my Rustler. I started letting him fly my Llama CX copter. Even with no wind in my garage he was all over the place. He nearly hit my Fox but he caught it mid air before it landed on my Fox. I was gonna kill him and he knew it! He broke a couple blades on the walls. I replaced....and flew and told him to watch my fingers. Granted....I was pretty lit and rusty, but I held that little CX within 6" at hover. Let him have at it again....and he got better. It was interesting watching the learning curve for a newb. *goes to drink more coke and rum* *still hasn't flown his CX....bout gonna*
Rookie......any advice on a Nimh and charger? I have a non brushless Rustler which is good fun.....but the cheapo packs only run for like 2 mins. I've seen some pretty high cap Nimh's and a pretty good charger at Tower. Looking to spend maybe 100 on a charger and at least 1 or 2 packs that might run at least 5 mins or more. I know what you're saying about the Lipos and cars tho. I've known some guys that ran a brushless in something as simple as a Rustler like I have......a huge cap Lipo....they run for 15 mins at 60mph+ BTW...I'd love to spend the cash on the brushless setup....a high price Lipo and charger.....but I'm working on funds to put AC and a supercharger on my Fox. Thus I'm trying to keep the RC hobbies in check if you know what I mean.
God knows I do......:stares at wall with 12 helis on it: I've dumped way too much money into it. But it's cheaper than rehab, divorce...and golf. Chargers can run you anywhere from $50 to $500. Comes down to name brand and power capabilities. Cost goes up exponentially with power capability. For a 50 watt system, you can get in for ~$50 or less....but for a 350 watt system, your looking at $300+. Keep in mind most RC chargers out there are intended to charge off a DC battery, like a car battery...so you need a power supply. One can be made from an ATX power supply for a PC with little work. GT is a name of a Chinese knock off line of chargers that is relatively decent. Turnigy is another. You can get into a 50Watt charger of either of those for $35 (linky) But end up paying shipping sometimes is killer. Most LiPo smart chargers will do Lead Acid, NiCad, and NiMH packs without issue. Your running 3cell packs, so you want something that can balance your packs, and 12.6 volts * 1.3 amps = ~15 watts. That will charge in an hour. If you want to be more agressive charging (at the cost of battery life) you can charge at 2C, which would require 30 watts.....still under 50 watt charger limitations. Lots of choices for smaller 3cell packs. Trouble comes when your running large packs. I have buddy flying a 10cell pack. Thats a 42 volt battery, charged, and its 4000 mAh. 1C is 4 amps. 4A*42V = 168watts. So, you can see where it starts getting cumbersome. Guys running 12cell packs wanting to charge in 30 minutes at the field are needing 300+ watt chargers. Hey.....do you have a brushless setup in the HBKII? PM me with an address if you don't. I have most, if not all, of the stuff around here that is just gathering dust. I'm more than willing to donate it for the cause Not sure why it took this long for me to realize that.......maybe it's the beer :raises Fat Tire: on point, I've not got too much NiMH experience. Just the recommendation to pickup a charger that does LiPo, cause inherently it will do NiMH as well. Only NiMh packs I have are in my Roto-Starter for my Nitro Savage XL.
Great bit of info! Thanks Rookie! My parts should show up Monday but I cant order the canopy or servo I need till Tuesdat so it will be a couple weeks before I am up in teh air again. I found a deal for 4-ball bearing metal gear micro servos for $40 so I am gonna change out all the crap servos in my heli at once. They have more tq and speed so I hope that helps me. Untill then I am just gonna play the hell out of my sim. The heli came with FMS but it dont run on Vista (even with the patch) so I downloaded HeliSimRC. Its free and only has one bird (t-rex 450) but you can set all your charechteristics into it and it has helped me allot.
Well at the moment....I'm in a pissy arse mood! And I have a BB gun and some stale water bottles....and my CX to fly.
Well this has been one interesting learning experience. All my new stuff showed up today so I went to work. Had to change some stuff to use the T-rex gears and the servos were another trip but I got it all together and working. Just have to wait for the main blades, not sure why they didnt show up. The metal gear/ ball bearing servos are much nicer then what was on there. They respond so much better and return to center much better then the old ones. I was suprised that they all moved in reverse from what the other servos did but that was easy to fix. Also had to adjust all the linkages because the servos are a hair taller. I also wanted to make sure the gyro was ok so I set the heli down and ran it on its lowest speed setting to see where I was at. I adjusted the tail with the remote and after centeringthe stick the gyro over shot the center and man did that little heli spin around fast and slam into my foot. So I lowered the gain and the throw (throw was WAY too far)and I hope I have it good to go. I hope the blades show up Monday cause after workingon the heli for the last few hours I reallywant to fly it. Expensive damn hobby! With all the parts I also had to order some specialty tools to work on the damn thing. Also got my balencer and a decient extra battery. Its a little ugly cause I was having a hard time with the blue and white canopy against the sky so now (untill I learn the damn machine) I got a bright ass yellow canopy and red rotor blades.
If your your heli VIOLENTLY spins on spool up, and it just seems to go faster and faster....it's not your gyro gain, it's the direction of the gyro. There should be a switch on the gyro labeled "Reverse" or something similar. If not, check the instructions and figure out how to reverse the gyro. It has to be done on the gyro itself, not the radio. At worst, with REALLY bad gain settings, the heli will drift significantly when stationary and the tail will spin quickly during high power punches. It won't constantly spin, that's a red flag that the gyro is reversed. If your servos (between stock and the metal gears) were reversed, that's why it needs to be reversed now. You can fix the issue by either flipping the tail servo 180* or by reversing the Gyro...either works. Easy way to check. Power up the heli, make sure that the throttle hold is on, or that the motor is disconnected. Hold the heli in front of you, so your looking at the side (the nose is to your right and the tail is to your left). Rotate the heli by pulling the tail towards you (counter clockwise). The gyro should be making the tail SLIDER slide towards. That is the correct motion. If not, then reversing the gyro should fix it.
I got my new batts for my heli! Tried to fly it yesterday, but it didn't stay powered for very long. I think my motor is burning out.
Sorry, didnt explain myself well on that. The heli was slowly wagging its tail sitting on the ground. I told it to rotate left and it did but very rapidly. I let the stick go back to center and the heli SHOT back the other direction and cut my foot. The new servos are twice as fast and strong and the gain was just a hair too high for them. I have since corrected it. Today I am trying to learn how to set up the pitch curve on my radio. It has no instructions and I cant find any online. It wasnt at zero pitch when set in 3-D at half stick. I dont have a pitch gauge so I did the folded blade method. My radio has two knobs marked "PIT" and "PLT". So I put it back in normal mode and unlocked the radio. The best I could do after messing with it for an hour is about -1 to -2* at zero stick, about 5* at mid stick and 10-11* at full stick (in normal mode). "PIT" is obviously pitch but I am not sure what "PLT" is. I think it is like a pitch gain cause it affects how much pitch is given for throttle travel but its linear. The radio does not seem to be programmable to set exactly how much pitch I want for each stage of throttle travel. But now in 3-d mode its 0* at mid stick and has full travel in both directions with no servo chatter at the maximums now so I guess I am close. I ordered a pitch gauge last night but it will be some time before it comes. I couldnt see spending $11 for a gauge from an american shop when the same exact gauge was $.99 shipped from China. Found out my blades were delayed in shipping so it will be a couple weeks till they show up. I spent my budget already for parts or I would order some more locally. Sux cause I will be going full time at work next week which means I will only have Sundays for flight now. Got a spare set? I ordered 4 pairs of fibreglass blades. Fortunatly the place I ordered all my other spare parts from sells the Align ones for $11 for 3 pairs shipped so next time I will order from them. They have such great deals and from the time I placed my order it was less then 3-days till it was at my door! 2200mah 20c w/Deans Ultra on it already= $22 6x main shaft=$9 10x fly bar=$12 4x metal gear/BB servos (Tower Pro)= $26 Carbon fibre blade balencer=$12 6x feathering shaft (new style)=$10 8x tail rotors= $3.50 5x 150T main gear=$6 All these prices were including shipping. They also sent me a bonus bag with 2 free belts, some tracking tape, some balencing tape and a screw set bag. They will get all my buisiness from now on. I still need an extra tail fin and some linkages but I am pretty well covered for everything else.
I'd Still check to make sure the gyro is set in the right direction. It still sounds like it's reversed. If the gyro is set in the right direction, there should be NO fast rotation of the heli without rudder input. It will either be wagging of the tail in place (Gain too high) or slow drift (gain too low) Having the tail kick out and spin the heli after a rudder input, but with no direct rudder input is the gyro is reversed. The gyro is trying to stop the movement from your input when you let go. If it's reversed, it sees the motion and applies a correction, and that correction is wrong...but the gyro doesn't know that, it just sees the rotation rate increasing, so it increases it's correction...making it worse, and repeat until you have a spinning top. Tail control is a combination of servo and gyro performance...but changing from one set of cheap servos, to another set of less-cheap servos isn't going to make a significant difference in the holding performance of the gyro. Just isn't going to happen. If there is ANY violent reactions to inputs, something isn't setup right.....Still sounds like the gyro is reversed. I'd still check via the tail method. It isn't going to hurt.
Like I said, it doesent do that any more. I will double check in a couple minutes though. I had to switch the radio from normal to reverse to make the tail servo go the right way. Are you saying I should switch it back in the radio and then reverse it on the servo instead?
Ah, now I see. Holding the heli and giving it a little throttle and rotating it I see what you were sayingaboutthe gyro. I reversed it and now it counter thrusts in the right direction. I dont have main blades yet but I notice the tail rotors pitch is trying to make the heli turn right a little. I assumed when rotors are on it that it would need a little counter clockwise thrust to counter act the main rotors. I may have dialedin too much though and may have to shorten the linkage a little.
You can't dial in the tail without having main blades on. Your getting too impatient Bill. SLOW DOWN. Your just going to hurry up to the next crash. The weight of the blades swinging creates the majority of the torque that the tail needs to overcome. If you set it up without blades on (Try to set up the gyro gain) it's going to be off, and your going to need to do it again. Also, you shouldn't be spinning the system up without blades in it really, either. Most likely, you won't cause damage, but running the power train with the weight and drag of the blades allows the motor to be spun up quicker than intended and possibly, given the quality of the speed control, can lead to over speeding the motor and possible other damage. Setting up a gyro for simple hovering is simple, assuming it is in the right direction. Start at ~50% gain (I assume it has a small adjustment on the gyro itself, and your not setting it via the radio). Spin it up until it gets light on the skids. If it rotates counter-clockwise, the gain is too high. If it stays in about the same place, but has a slight, or strong "wagging" it is too high. The perfect setting is to have the gain set just below the wagging point. Do you have a Rate Gyro or a Heading Hold Gyro....do you know?? If you have a Heading Hold (or AVS) gyro, then the setting will hold throughout a battery pack. If it is only a rate gyro, the gain setting is conditional on the headspeed, so as a battery pack decays and voltage drops, the gyro doesn't do as good of a job. You will see drift at the end of a pack that you will have to accommodate for. Also, you setup a rate gyro a bit different than a AVS/HH gyro. A AVS/HH will accommodate for a non-ideal mechanical setup, a Rate gyro is setup in tandem with the mechanics. Another tip/comment. Most cheaper gyros are piezo-electric gyros. They can be susceptible to temperature changes. Meaning, with the seasons changing, it isn't a bad idea to make sure that you give the heli a chance (an hour or so) to soak at the outside ambient temperature before flying if there is a drastic temp difference between where it was stored and outside. Anything more than 20*F, I'd give it a chance to warm/cool to outside temps. Worst that will happen is that the tail performance will vary as the gyro changes temps. Higher end Gyros, GY-401, JR770, Spartans, GY601..etc, are MEMS technology and aren't susceptible to temp deviations
I figured I couldnt set my tail servo just right untill I had main blades on. All I have reallybeen doing is getting everything else perfectly level again with the new servos. Horns at 90* and all the links straight. The reason I was asking about the tail is I didnt know if I was supposed to set the center point of the servo as the center point (no pitch) on the rear rotor or if the rear tail needed to have a certain ammount of pitch to counter act the main blade spinning or if the gyro did that as well. I have a head lock gyro, its not a high end one but from what I have read on some RC sites the versionI have is pretty decient and stable. When I get the blades I will just spend a couple packs sliding it around on its training gear and getting the trimming down. I also switched the pitch/throttle curve back to stock specs with 0* at low stick and 5-6* at mid stick with 11-12* at max stick. Throttle is 0,40,65,85,100. I loaded those specs into my simulator and have been practicing with a 4-7mph wind. I have spent 12+ hours on the sim since my last crash and am going to be more careful. As much as I have learned in just the last couple days has made the crash not so bad. I am much more familiar with the bird and how to set stuff up, not scared of it. I havent crashed the sim in a few days eaither and allot of the movements are coming automatic instead of thinking about it.
