School us on engines...

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by GDawg, Dec 23, 2006.


  1. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Oh, and this guy does the "porting for all the fast cars down there," that right there is some nonsense, he just wants you to get your heads from there. I don't know anyone who can do heads better than Al Pappito or Fox Lake......THEY do the porting for the fast cars.
    __________________ someone elses opinion

    at least some of my statements are unremarkable.... all of yours are.


    ls chevy's suck because they cannot make power without cubes. 5.3 only makes 303. unremarkable.


    huge ports, large valves,big cubes. so what a 460 outpowers them. ALL worthless and unremarkable. your numbers and technical cut and pastes from some program you look at mean nothing. your claims mean nothing. 350 low velocity hogged out 250cc LS ports are not impressive. and neither are you.

    attempting to attack me to somehow boost you ego or image mean nothing.

    these guys know me. they know what i do know and what i don't know. i'm not too proud to bow to superior knowledge. many of them in here have that. and i bow to them. you.... are..... nobody!!!!!!
  2. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Do you have any links to these guys??? Its hard to believe that these guys are going 350+RWHP with just some heads and "reasonable" grind cams, and obviously the adverage boltons. Are these guys running P&P bullitt, P51, ect intake manifolds too?
    I know ken B had a HCI setup that had MANY MANY hours in them, and someting like 150 dyno pulls....and he was making somthing like 355RWHP.

    So far we are just taking your word for it...so we need more info....specifically a link to some of these peeps :)
  3. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    By David Vizard


    Applying the basics outlined for seats will get good results, but to get the max requires a lot of time on a flow bench, as subtle changes can make measurable differences. Often some changes in seat angles are used by top pros to enhance some particular feature. For instance, most Cup car heads have 50- or even 55-degree valve seats. These give up a little low-lift flow, but start to pay back above .5-inch lift. Also, the steeper valve angle acts as an impact damper, reducing the valve's tendency to bounce off the seat at closure time. For big-inch under-valved engines, 30-degree seats can be advantageous, as they make the valve appear bigger than it really is and flow more air during the initial opening phase.



    so, what you are saying is to buy a ported head by some joker in tampa with 55 degree seats so we can lose flow to where our cams start to close. most MOD cams are .500-.550. i will pass myself.
  4. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Seats and Port Approach Angles
    Air has mass and does not like to hug a port wall around a short-side turn. That is why purpose-built race heads have steeply down-drafted ports. But when heads have to fit under low hoods, port angles have to come down. With low-angle ports, the air (at mid and high valve lifts) does not make it around the short-side turn very well. As a result, most of the air goes out of the long-side turn. This is a situation that becomes more exaggerated the higher the lift becomes. As a result, the streamlining of the port on the long side needs to cater for low, medium and high lifts, while the seat approach on the short side needs only to deal with the requirements of low-lift flow. Fig 4 illustrates what is going on with a low angle of attack port (i.e. less than about 30 degrees).

    like i said the charge tends to flow to the outside parallel with the margin. on parallel arrangments. so hemi / canted valves are better.
  5. Mike97gt

    Mike97gt it doe snot Mod Dude Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 1999
    Messages:
    12,473
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    79
    I may have missed something but I think he also was saying that 350+ RWHP was not only with fully ported heads ( ported beyond your normal stage II vt's or fox lake) but with some basic bottom end tricks like low tension rings and pulling vacumm on the crankcase plus other tricks to improve bottom end sealing. that work to improve ring sealing does help out.

    well anyways, keep this clean... I do not want to have to come check on this thread during the pats game ( 1:00 pm eastern time)
  6. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    When the exhaust valve is at relatively low lift, the exhaust gasses can be exiting the seat area at super sonic speeds. During this phase the exhaust responds more to opening area than form. As valve lift increases, the gas velocity drops to subsonic, and port form now becomes the dominant factor toward high flow

    so those velocity maps i posted are really not so high are they.

    now i am cutting and pasting. but i am telling you.
  7. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    These tests, done on a 350 Chevy, show that though the bigger ports flowed about 5 cfm more at .5-inch lift, the smaller, higher-velocity ports produced a much better power curve. At 2,250 rpm, the smaller ports were up by 30 lb-ft. An engine equipped with the bigger ports would need about 25 cubes more to match the low-speed output of the smaller-port heads.



    thus the things i said about higher velocity. kinds goes against everything you say.
  8. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    SVT.... Quote from laserred

    "These cars I know over of over 350 didn't have custom stepped headers, low-tension rings with crankcase vacuum, or "fancy heads."
  9. Mike97gt

    Mike97gt it doe snot Mod Dude Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 1999
    Messages:
    12,473
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    79

    Ohh I see I did misread that.
  10. billfisher

    billfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    i know you guys think i am overreacting by going after what that guy says.

    i also know i have a rep of attacking chevy's and a lot of you ignore me for that reason. but i cannot let anyone come in here and print "facts" that go against everything i know to be true, by the off chance that an impressionable stanger will listen and buy products that may work for big inchers,marginally, but apply to MODS in no way.
  11. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Fried or Broiled ?

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    9,413
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    124
    I could not agree more... Its people like LaserRed01GT that inspired me to stop posting here. They seem to think that people who do not know as much as they do are not entitled to post in tech :notnice:
  12. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You are more than welcome to post anywhere you like. I have done this stuff for a long time and I have a lot of professional knowledge to share. Am I the world's best engine builder? No, but I ain't no rookie either. Like I said earlier, people like you can take what I have to share and toss it aside, throw it in the garbage, or you can have an open mind and actually learn something that you can put to use down the road.

    Inspired you to stop posting here huh?? That may be a good or bad thing depending on who is looking at it. This thread was going fine until the young kids like billfisher, 01 Steeda, and mogs01gt start showing their age and resorting to making personal attacks. This is to be expected of you young guys when someone comes onto the board with a professional working knowledge of race cars and then all of the sudden your safe little fasad of making people believe that you actually have a clue is all of the sudden threatened. The first thing you do is start bashing and personally attacking those who make you feel inferior for whatever reason that may be. You need to grow up get and get a life.

    I was sent a few PM's my a few moderators telling me about people like you, billfisher, and a few others. They asked me to not get discouraged by all of your known little games and leave the site. Well guess what, I am here to stay my friend. I have dealt with negative people like you all my life, I figured out you guys games a long time ago:D

    On with the show!
  13. Fast Eddie 41

    Fast Eddie 41 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have seen these cars...or at least a few that Kevin knows about that come by the shop sometimes on weekends to watch us fire up Chuck's top fuel hydro boat next door.:nice:

    Two of those guys had Reichard Racing intake manifolds that I saw and they were over 365 WHP. The other 2 guys that I think Kevin is talking about were using the stock 2 valve intake with the updated aluminum crossover as far as I could see and they were over 350 WHP.

    Keep in mind.....these cars all had custom camshafts ground by a guy here in Clearwater. They were not off the shelf grinds from Comp or something alike. Very impressive cars. Custom ground camshafts specific to each application are the only way to go as every motor is different. And this guys's prices for both cams is right in line with the big name prices.
  14. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok, fair enough....thanks for the info :nice: . But these guys HAVE to have a local forum, so I would LOVE to see a link and see their exact setup. You must understand where im coming from...up until now the only people making much over 330RWHP were guys with darn near race motors, and 324 CI BB strokers. Its not common at all on the boards to see anywhere over 330.
    And the RR intake is generally a VERY high RPM/HP oriented manifold...generally seen on 600+RWHP novi/turbo cars.

    SO yea, see if you guys can ask them what site they go on....and that way there will be no speculation. :)
  15. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'll ask them next time I see them, but I have never heard them mention anything about a "local forum." Most of the car guys I know do not post on internet forums. I think most people would be surprised by the small percentage of hot rod owners that actually post on internet forums. Heck, the only reason I came here was because I wanted to seek the advice on a few issues with some other 4.6 SOHC 2V guys and because I am not married......yet.:D
  16. Mike97gt

    Mike97gt it doe snot Mod Dude Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 1999
    Messages:
    12,473
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    79
    Ok can we now stop with the bull****. I really do not see why some people are getting so offended in this thread. If I am missing somthing please point it out too me.

    All I see is two members have a disagreement (bill and laserred01gt) one member ( laserred01gt) questions the knowledge of the other (bill) and they argued about it.. What is the big deal. Is there some unwriten rule that I am not aware of that says one can not question the knowledge of another user..

    laserred and bill take it to PM's but feel free to post what is so great about these hand ported heads. I really would like to see a dyno graph and cam specs for this setup you are talking about.

    I did not see anything said by anybody in this thread that said less knowledgable users should not post in tech, please feel free to point out where this happend.
  17. san~man

    san~man O-G Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 1999
    Messages:
    8,803
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Now I have to check this damn thread every day too.

    I should just lock it and let it start again, if it ever does.

    Everyone is entitled to make a post, whether they are correct or not. Everyone is entitled to rebutt someone else's post too, to try and correct them or to try to state their point of view. It's when it gets to the point where one person insults another that he/she, the other, or both get a free vacation from SN, whether it be a week off or forever.

    You BOTH seem to have knowledge, so do us ALL a favor and SHARE it with us. Feel free to debate with each other, but the argument and senseless bickering stops now.
  18. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thank you much sir :)

    Its apparent that the mods are getting POd...so what we really cant control is people saying hatefull things (that are ALL completely uncalled for BTW)
    We will leave them for Tim and San~man :flag: .
    But how we can stop this right now, is for the "better man" per say to just ignor any non tech/hatefull comment made by anyone on here. So EVERYONE thats serious here and wants this thread to continue, just really read your comments and make sure its not going to offend anyone.

    There is alot of knowledge still left here, and I would hate for it not to be discovered due to some bickering that could easily be avoided :nice:
  19. Stan Weiss

    Stan Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Although David is VERY knownlegable. You can not pull a few line quote from an article he wrote. You need to post a link to the article so we know the context from which the quote came from or to me it is suspect.
  20. LaserRed01GT

    LaserRed01GT Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Stan, this is what this guy billfisher does, he pulls quotes from articles cleverly using them to attempt to make a competent point. He knows full well that he is purposely taking things out of context in an attempt to back up his previous posts.

    I have read that article, and Dave is talking about Nextel Cup cars using those 55┬░ primary seat angles. What bill apparently doesn't realize is that when Dave says "they start to pay back over .500" of lift", Dave is speaking about a Cup motor that is making around 900 HP at the crank, has SB2 heads (totally different head from ours), is a pushrod motor with a roller cam, and is sustaining RPM's around 8-10K for 4 hours straight. Cup motors are a totally different animal, and it is obviously worthless to compare a Cup motor to our 4.6 SOHC 2 valves.

    Our motors respond very well to a numerically higher seat angle, especially with the emissions mask ground off. It promotes tip-in reaction throughout peak lift, and also allows to completely zero out the tip-in calibrations in the tune and then focus on your fuel and spark tables and injector breakpoint tables.

    BTW bill, even the popular Comp camshafts as small as 226/230 (XE262AH) has a lift of .550". Most so called Stage II or bigger cams will have a lift of close to .550 or more. Our motors will reap the benefits of a numerically increased primary valve seat as low as .400" of lift.

Share This Page