Serpentine belt Slippage - motor swap

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by hllon4whls, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    So guys I bought a cheap Frankenstein 89 carbed 5sp hatch with a little cam, flows and dumps. Car runs good overall and looks decent. Lots of little things that need to be done, but I wanted something to tinker with...

    I thought that someone hacked up a belt system but finally realized that this setup comes out of a 80's LTD. Belt alignment is good, cooling is good, charging is bad (alternator is failing), but the belt squeals constantly at any rpm. If I dump the clutch between gears, it chirps and its quite annoying.

    Here is an example of the setup (not mine) with the exception that I have a direct drive fan with a spacer (no clutch). The guy said that he just put a new belt and it still squeals.

    [​IMG]

    The crank pulley is huge and looks to overdrive the WP and the alternator quite a bit. I haven't bought a gatorback for the car yet, but any options? Anyone know of an old school trick to drive the WP slower and give more belt contact? A nice big WP pulley would most probably solve the issue. I may have to bite the bullet by going with an electric fan setup to reduce the load on the belt.
     
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  2. TOOLOW91

    TOOLOW91 Mustang Master

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    I am thinking you are having more of a tension issue than anything else , I would get the next size down in that belt which may allow you to actually tension it right and you will have no more squeal


    Sent from my iPhone using my fingers
     
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  3. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    If that's a reverse flow water pump that's installed on that block then that could explain the chirping. You need a positive flow rotation with that belt routing.

    [​IMG]

    Additionally... There's hardly any wrap at all around that water pump pulley. It really does need to be around the other side to get a good enough grip.

    Another option would be to run an electric fan.
     
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  4. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard
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    id check the pump flow direction as noobz pointed out and if its reverse rotation, get a belt that fits against the underside of the wp pulley
     
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  5. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    Going to need a tensioner or at least another pulley above and to the left of the water pump too. If it's already a positive rotation pump, you should still have a tensioner between the water pump and alt in order to get more bet wrap.
     
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  6. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard
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    some say you need a tensioner but every manufacturer ran without them for how long? Not saying one way is right or better than the other but ive had no tensioner for years. No good pics of the belt wrap, but zero slippage.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard
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    some say you need a tensioner but every manufacturer ran without them for how long? Not saying one way is right or better than the other but ive had no tensioner for years. No good pics of the belt wrap, but zero slippage.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    Yeah... not talking about having the tensioner to apply tension. Talking specifically about having another pulley to get more wrap around the WP pulley. Recall that the OP said he had a fan on it.
     
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  9. Rick 91GT

    SN Certified Technician Site Sponsor

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    I'd like to see an additional idler added between the water pump and the alt which will give you more wrap on both which IMO you need.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
     
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  10. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    Found another/better diagram. Bottom left shows an idler pulley setup to increase the wrap.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    All valid thoughts. I am trying to stay cheap with this car. Not sure that I will keep it and want to have some possibility of getting my money back. I spent half the day with a 3g conversion since my stock alt failed. Because the alt pulley is bigger, I have to get a new belt, so it was very close to the minimum length. As fate would have it, when I converted my 87 to pure drag machine, I didn't keep the parts I had.

    I understood that this belt setup requires a regular rotation WP, but I assumed it would be correct since it stays so cool.

    If go back to a proper reverse setup, I''m looking at a few hundred dollars. If that is my only solution, I will do it, but trying to avoid the cash expenditure. See my rough estimate to convert back.
    Brackets ~ $90
    Reverse WP ~ $25
    Pulleys ~ $90
    Belt ~ $25
     
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  12. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    Bah. Finally found the right length belt and the belt still squeals. I'm going to have to stop being a cheap SOB and modify the drive system to get more wrap. UGH



     
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  13. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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    Are you able to get the part number off the water pump? Verify that it's a positive rotation. If it's not... The easiest thing to do would be to move the alternator back over to the other side of the motor. That would give you all the belt wrap in the world without having to change anything else.

    If it's actually a positive rotation then you should try and find a way to put an idler pulley between the water pump and alternator pulleys to push down and increase wrap.
     
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  14. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    I drove this car on interstate and around town before and it stays at 190 degrees. If it was the wrong WP, it would overheat I think. I will look for the part number. The whole thing is very visible.

    In this case moving the Alternator back to the other side would make no difference on the belt wrap. I would have to add an idler somewhere to do that.
     
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  15. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    I think I got it worked out. I took a lot into consideration including putting a stock style (no smog, no AC) setup back on the car as you guys suggested, but I went with an approach that listened to my wallet and one that would allow me to go forward step at a time without wasting money. I went with an under drive pulley; which I would have done anyway. I'm only using the crank. The factory Frankenstein setup was over driving the WP, the PS and the ALT. I roughly calculated the WP at 30% overdriven with the stock setup. With the underdrive it is roughly at 15% under driven.

    Crank pulley new and old. Huge weight difference too.
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/320889_4395144491530_964008488_n.jpg
    Best pic I could get of the belt.
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/310014_4410001662950_798843410_n.jpg


    View: http://youtu.be/3GTdmqoKo8g
     
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  16. 88gt373

    88gt373 Member

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    watching that vid, the squeal seems to happen when the fan picks up speed and starts to flex. if get rid of that set up for a e fan for the JY or get a clutch fan setup.. i ran my reverse pump the wrong way for a while when i got my first stang and it didnt over heat, just ran hot.. like 3/4's the way on the stock temp gauge.

    my e fan was super cheap. i used a jeep e fan (im a dodge tech so i get left overs) cut the mounting tabs off and bolted it to my stock fan shroud ( stole the idea from another write up) {HERE} and ran it thru a relay and a thrmo-switch.. costs me 20 bucks.. fans and a pick n pull are $30.. id bet if you took off that fan the squeak would be gone

    BUT for better measure itd be best to some how throw an idler in there but guys in racing run 8 rib crank to alt belts all day with no slippage and using the alt as the tensioner so youll be fine..
     
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  17. 88gt373

    88gt373 Member

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    also sounds like your fuel is loading up.. you idle seems a little inconsistent. whats the carb set up? i love the fuel cell BTW :cheers:
     
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  18. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    Electric fan may be in the future but trying to spend wisely and not overspend as the car is not worth much.

    As far as the carb goes, it is the edelbrock carb. Throttle response seems good, but hot start is terrible. Plugs look good. Also when warmed up the idle will not come down below 1000 rpm. I back the set screw all the way off but the throttle blades won't close anymore. I've removed the throttle cable but that is not holding the throttle. I've actually only run one tank of fuel through the car since I have owned but the fuel economy was terrible. I have a very old holley vac secondary that I want to rebuild and use.
     
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  19. 88gt373

    88gt373 Member

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    it might not be worth much, but i think an e fan will be the easiest/cheapest fix for your set up with out re doing the serp drive set up. as car as your, what model is your carb? i havent done many late model 302 carb set ups, but i do know alot of people over carb the 302's. and depending on your cam, your idle will always be a little higher than stock.. dont depend on the stock gauge if you have hook up an aftermarket one if thats in the works. as for hot starts, our fuel is deff loading up. get an eddybrock manual and get a base set up for the carb and make sure your fuel lines are routed away from heated parts as much as you can. fuel filter is clean, timing, plugs are ok tec. who knows that the last guy did to set it up.. it also wont hurt to pull the hat off the carb and see what jets and springs you have along with the actual Cfm size of the carb.

    as for carb size if you use the summit calculator, a 302/305ci that redlines at 6k only needs about 550cfm carb. id probly put a 600 or 650 on it and play with the jets. if you have anything larger than 600cfm on the car now it deff needs to be jetted down.

    my e cam w/ stock EFI idled best at about 900 RPM(ish) hope this helps, all the above except the fan are pretty much free, just go thru it all. start at your plugs, timing, then go thru the carb and make sure everything is okay.. but you need a base line tune first with the carb. eddys' kinds suck so it you have a holly thats good, rebuild that and throw it on or get the eddy running dialed in...
     
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  20. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    I forgot what carb it is, but it is a good choice for the motor in general. It's old looking, oxidized and rusting around the linkages. I've read a bunch of the Chevy guys have hot start issues with these.
     
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