spark timing tables and power adders

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by biglar, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. biglar

    biglar New Member

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    Spark tables for power adder use

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First, is 26 total advance correct if i was using N2O 150 shot? im assuming that a 1995 CBAZA strategy ecm uses 32 total advance in N/A form. Im basing this on the theory of removing 2 degrees of timing for every 50 shot of N2O. i do see alot of turbo and blower folks using 21 degrees of total advance.this is where im confused. Also Sailor bob wrote over in [eectuning.org] that in cbaza to tune your spark off the BDLN spark table and to set all other spark tables to 55???? is this correct as right now im tuning off the base spark table and all other spark tables are set to 55. I dont want to screw this up due to the N2O use. By the way i think Sailor Bob is a very well respected tuner and please dont feel that im dissin his word its just that ive gotten conflicting stories on this subject when doing searches and as you all know power adders and stock hyperuthethic pistons arent a good marriage

    Thanks again guys

    larry
     
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  2. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    I've not had any forced induction experience Larry :D
    but
    I don't mind helping in other areas if I can :shrug:

    First thing I would point out is .......

    NA and PA is really radical different applications :Word:
    so
    What works for one is not gonna be the best method for the other ;)

    Where do you get the 32 degrees of spark value Larry :scratch:

    Grady
     
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  3. Mustangless

    Mustangless New Member

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    Settings all other spark tables to 55 will ignore them. On the base spark table I have the top 2 rows from 2000 up at 19*. So it just locks at 19* with enough throttle. I still get it pulled when it warms up enough though. I don't have n20 so I am not really sure, but it should be the same. Others should comment though.
     
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  4. Stanger007

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    Brett has some great advice on the spark. If you figure 2* drop per 50 shot, minus the 26* total advance, that puts you around 19-20.

    Get the AFR in the mid 11's and have at it.

    PM blksn995.0 - he can give some razor-sharp advice.

    Wes
     
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  5. biglar

    biglar New Member

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    I was always told that a 302 5.0 liter motor liked 32-36 total advance. I was subtracting from that figure "32 degrees total advance " to come up with 26 degrees total advance for the n2o. Looks as if i should drop that down to 20-22 degrees toal advance for n2o use. What do you guys think of this?? Also could you comment on the spark table questions i had? thanks everyone

    Larry
     
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  6. Stanger007

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    If you are tuning in the base spark table, set it and the altitude table to be the same due to the way CBAZA interpolates between the two. This is how I do it.

    Aluminum headed N/A motors usually end up around the mid-lower 30s for total spark advance. You want to start lower and then work it up slowly, looking for the most power. The power will drop off before it starts detonating.

    Hell, I started my WOT spark at a whopping 15 for the supercharger and gradually worked it up to 21.

    Wes
     
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  7. biglar

    biglar New Member

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    Nice ok thazts how ill do it. as usual great advise guys!!
    Thanks again

    Larry
     
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  8. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    OK Larry :D

    Gonna be a bit long :(
    but
    I feel you need some basic info to turn on the light as they say :rlaugh:

    I guess I'd say I had a concern :eek:
    when I saw you quote the value of 32 degrees :scratch:

    When you look at CBAZA spark tables ...........
    what you see is THE value and you DO NOT add 10 for the dizzy setting

    another way of looking at the tables is ........
    Those values are ASSUMED that 10 is the setting of the dizzy

    Now you can have some + or - of spark value done with things such as
    ect, atc and the like (which happens more in the t4m0 than in the j4j1) but
    for the most part ... what you see in the table will be the ballpark value of
    what you are gonna see in your WOT dlogs when talking about greatest
    load row values.

    I will say I've tried various methods of playing around with
    all four tables of base, altitude, borderline, and mbt and I
    spent a good bit of time doing it :crazy:

    My objective in doing so was to be able to see the values
    I called for in my file were the same values I saw in my
    WOT dlogs ... AND ... I expected them to match ... EXACTLY :Word:

    Using the t4m0 as a foundation in my early efforts at learning all
    this stuff ... I could NOT make WOT dlog values match file values
    until I took out the bline & mbt tables with 55 in all cells.

    Also .........

    I can say I've found no difference in using base and altitude together
    or just the base only for more ease of tuning ... either method gives
    me the matching file & dlog values that I require :shrug:

    Now about your desire to find a value based upon using ... The Juice :D

    I don't quite understand the reasoning of picking a value such as
    32 degrees when your pcm won't call for it in the first place :scratch:

    That that 36 degree value you spoke of ...........
    Its a rule of thumb for ................................................. NA COMBOS ;)

    I'd tell you to listen to Wes, Brett, and other forced folk :nice:

    But understand ... If you're talking about a stock table........
    You'll see at max load about 26 like Wes said
    So
    To make sure you don't have any issues ........
    The 32 to 36 degrees here won't be applicable to your application :nono:
    At least ... as I see it :shrug:

    About sailorbob ... Yes ... I too feel he knows his stuff :hail2:

    I'd tell you he said to use the bline table due to a specific application
    which is great for a forced combo.

    Please allow a bit of copy & paste tactics from my personal files
    to help here :)

    The info is quite old and goes way back to the early days of the
    old EEC Tuner when we all were cutting our teeth on how to tune
    but I do feel it can help you Larry as it did me way back then ;)

    I MUST give credit to Mr. David Posea :hail2:
    He was so helpful to me and I learned so much from him :Word:

    From: spiro <tanastog@o...>
    Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 9:35pm
    Subject: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables

    Hi ,

    Does anyone know when the altitude , base and Borderline spark tables are used by the EEC?
    I know the base is probably for sealevel , and altitude is used for
    altitudes , depending on barometric pressure and eec extrapolates
    form the two to use as a spark table. Does any one know how it calculates
    the spark table?

    Also when is the bordeline spark table being used and how ? Is it tied
    with the other two tables?

    Thanks

    Spiro

    From: David Posea <dposea@m...>
    Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 4:33pm
    Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


    All three are used all the time :) Base and altitude spark are combined
    based on barometric pressure, and most eec's use just the base table until
    pressure is below 26in/hg. Set them to the same values and you won't need to
    worry about that!!

    The borderline table gets lots of things added to it, then it is compared
    with the value from the base/alt table, and the lower value is used. On
    later EECs there is also an MBT spark table that is also used, again with
    the lowest value being used.

    David

    From: <vinson.r.dansby@a...>
    Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 8:31am
    Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


    David, this statement is just to clarify what your wrote, the eec
    (eec V)takes a look at all three tables and then takes the lowest
    value to used as timing. So in theory I should or could set one of
    the tables (spark_base_table or spark_borderline_det_table)to a high
    number, say 55, and set one table to the values that I want the eec
    to use. But, which table do I set high and which table do I use to
    set my timing? Also, whare does the spark_MBT_table come into play
    and how does it affect the timing that I set?

    From: <dposea@m...>
    Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 11:54am
    Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


    See the MBT post for more details on it. It is normally higher than
    base spark, so it doesn't get used. You can set either base spark or
    borderline spark to 55 (or 63) and tune using only one table. Which
    you choose depends on what you want to do. The borderline table value
    is modified by A/F ratio, ECT, ACT, and a couple of other things.
    Base spark only gets added too by EGR, mostly. So if you want spark
    to change with changing conditions, set the base table high. If you
    want the same spark values all the time, set borderline high.

    David



    Lastly ... Optimizing WOT fuel & spark is where one can do damage :Word:

    I feel it best :D
    To ensure with a Wideband the fuel is fat like Wes said above :nice:

    BEFORE

    Going for the spark values that produce the most WOT power

    Again ... sorry for the long reply ... I hope this stuff helps :)

    Grady
     
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  9. biglar

    biglar New Member

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    As always grady " the cream always rises to the top !!!" Another fine explanation of how things work. many thanks buddy

    BigLar
     
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  10. final5-0

    final5-0 Mustang Master

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    Glad the info helped my friend :nice:

    I can't help it :nono:

    I just got a soft spot in my heart :shrug:
    for those who are trying to learn what makes that little silver box tick :D

    Hey ... I can certainly remember how overwhelmed :bang: :crazy:

    I was when I started to learn all this stuff ;) :rlaugh:

    That info I shared with you from some of my oldest files ..........

    I bet I was more lost then than you are now :Word:
    so
    I was glad to pass on something that helped me in the past :)

    Grady
     
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  11. blksn955.o

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    Make 110% sure you N/A is correct. There is an old addage I heard...a good running N/A motor is a GREAT running n2o motor.

    Always check/replace your wires, cap, rotor, make sure your at 10* at the dizzy (if running a tweecerR/T). At the 150 level you want at least 1 range colder plug and 2 is going to be the safest as well as a bigger fuel pump or an inline pump(did not read if did or did not have one).

    For the bottle I would say 90% is actuall parts selection. I recomend at a BARE min. getting a window switch and some kind of spark booster box (MSD, Mallory, ect).

    The tune portion is going to be all in the upper rows of the spark/fuel tables that deal with WOT. That means for best results a W/B o2 is needed to make sure your at your target A/F ratio. Start with the 2* for every 50hp from the stock total spark...and that is around 26. If you know were your cars sweet spot is for no ping N/A I would use that number -2* per 50hp as you "MAX" total spark if you want to SLOWLY add spark after you have made sure your fuel is good.

    For fuel- target 11.5-11.8 at WOT.
     
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