Engine Stroking My 302 To A 347, General Questions.

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by James.Little, Nov 13, 2013.


  1. James.Little

    James.Little Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    So... can someone explain engine displacement and compression to me like im five?
    #41
  2. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry? SN Certified Technician Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,221
    Likes Received:
    1,313
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Lmao, I'm seriously cracking up at the "like I'm five" part...
    #42
  3. clement

    clement Founding Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Location:
    Oak Cliff
    so a 302 cylinder is like a glass 4" wide and 3" long. for all intents and purposes a 408 is still a 4" wide glass, but now its 4" long. if the bottom of the glass moved up and down and you have a seal at the top of the glass and nothing can get out; since the 408 glass will hold a greater volume of 'stuff' by the time the bottom of the glass (bottom dead center) gets to the top (top dead center) the stuff in the 408 glass will be more tightly packed than the stuff in the 302 glass at the very top assuming everything other than the length of the glass is the same.
    #43
  4. James.Little

    James.Little Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    That makes plenty of sense to me, thank you so much!
    So, I am dead serious about rebuilding a 351w to a 408 stroker. I need to makes a part list so I have goals on what to buy.
    I plan on buying the SCAT 408 stroker kit, I have decided not to add a power adder, and if I do, that will give another chance to rebuild the motor.

    So, since I am new to all of this, I need some help on what I need, here is what I know I need.
    *351w
    *SCAT Stroker Kit, I need help picking out the heads, I am given
    I am not entirely sure which heads better fit my application.
    *lifters
    *rods
    *oil pan
    *oil pump
    *freeze plugs
    * valve covers (not really needed, but I want new ones)
    *water pump
    *upper and lower intake
    *throttle body(?)
    *MAF sensor(?)
    * injectors(?)
    * gaskets
    for the life of me, I cannot think..
    items marked with a ?, I need help picking out, also any other things I am missing, or I don't need?
    #44
  5. James.Little

    James.Little Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Lol, I don't know if you frequent reddit, but they have a subreddit called "Explain it like im five", its a good way to get people to dumb things down for simple understanding.

    Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/
    #45
  6. clement

    clement Founding Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Location:
    Oak Cliff

    ok. ill play. first I want to say this: a real 500rwhp 3200lb fox done right is a freaking beast of a street car. so much so that it might kill you if it wont hook up and wont stop. I have pleanty of friends that have quit messing with cars when their 400rwhp blower 302s gave them a taste. now that is out of the way. a real, nasty 500rwhp big NA windsor will make a lot more midrange than a small headed 302 with boost, at least that's been my experience.

    honestly, you might just want to build a cheap windsor short block with a nice top end to get your feet wet. on the street that will actually hook up a lot better than the 4" stroke motors do. we have been having all kinds of suspension issues since putting the high compression 408 in my friends LX than we did with the pump gas 358. and we are using the same heads and headers that we used before. we cant even run the nitrous yet because the car is launching so violently (mid 1.3 60' times on motor) already. before one of the 358s cheap pistons came apart on a 150 shot that car was standing up, but it was going straight. on motor the 358 was running high 1.4 sec 60' times, on the bottle low 1.4s.

    anyway, I am going to assume you want a hydraulic roller. if it were mine, and I were building an efi low maintenance all motor combo that would run on pump gas and depending on how well the car is setup would probably run low 11s@3200ish lbs. it would look like......

    at 358" windsor

    morel lifter, some cheap scat I beam rods, stock block, stock crank, probably some srp or mahle pistons (my personal preference for cheap 4032 stuff, im just not partial to probes), whatever oil pan I could get cheap, an melling 10832 oil pump, nothing special for freeze plugs, the weiand water pump is what I have, probably a TFS R 351 intake, big TB, a big SCT maf and tune, 42lb injectors.....

    for a cam I would probably keep it simple and use an Anderson N61 and matching valvesprings for decent driveability, or if you wanted a little more an N81 would work. some comp ultra pro mag rockers or the stainless crowers, and like a total engine airflow TFS 205 TW head and some 1.75" longtubes.

    408:

    when you get into a 4" stroke, bigger cam, scat kit, a good machinist, a super victor based efi converted intake with a hat on it. bigger injectors, maybe a little bigger header depending on the cam and use everything else the same as above.

    not knowing your experience in cars and making the assumption that you may have been in a few stock performance cars, I would say build the 358" at first to get your feet wet. because there is a huge difference between a low 11 second car and a low 10 second car in terms of how fast stuff happens when the car comes unhinged.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    #46
  7. liljoe07

    liljoe07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    39
    Location:
    Cartersville,Ga
    #47
  8. jpope417

    jpope417 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    30
    Showcase:
    69
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Hubert NC
    #48
  9. jpope417

    jpope417 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    30
    Showcase:
    69
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Hubert NC

    Yes I agree, like you said the rest of the components need to be right. So with that set up what gears and stall did you have to go with(or what gears if it was a manual)?
    #49
  10. jpope417

    jpope417 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    30
    Showcase:
    69
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Hubert NC
    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg Just to add on to what I was originally trying to say. Everyone has a different set up that they like. I used to want the tallest gear possible and a radical cam that made power way up in to the 6600-6800's. Over time I learned for what I do with my cars and what I enjoy that set up is awesome to squeeze every last mph in the 1/4 mile and get that extra few tenths of a second out of your ET. But my god did that suck driving 17 miles each way to the track. I take pride in driving my car to the track and beating the pants off some Chevys and Mopars that are trailered in formless then 15 miles away. Over time my "likes" changed for my setup. In my personal opinion I don't care for 4.10's or higher with a high stall like 3500+ on the street. I think for a driver car 3.73's and 2750 stall and maybe just maybe 3000 rpm are enough. Let me explain why. I live Just out side the city limits and have to drive in 60mph zone (everyone does 10 over so cruising at 70) for 12 miles just to get in to the 45 and 35 mph areas. I have a 4r70w (so I have a nice overdrive) with a comp-u-shift 2 computer for the trans with a 2750 stall and 3.73 in the rear on a 26" tall tire. So cruising at 70mph it hangs around 2200-2400. If I'm down around 55-60 it sits right at 2000 rpms. Just nice so it's not pushing crazy rpms for a long period on the highway. Some people say "well who cares what rpms it spins on the highway. A well built motor can handle cruising at 3500 RPM all day long". Yea im sure it could but why put your motor through that and shorten its life. I have a lot of money in my motor and would prefer NOT to pay any more on rebuilding it any time soon. Also I do a lot of driving in and around town in my car and with dual electric fans with a good aluminum radiator with the trans cooler built in and a Long true cool transmission cooler run in series it can still get a little warm if I get stuck in a 25-35 for a long period of stop and go and I don't use my trans computer to make the converter lock up vs it slipping all that time. I have zero trans cooling issues,at the track but in NC on a hot summer day 95+ degrees getting caught in slow moving traffic it has shown she doesn't like it. I just couldn't imagine a 4000 rpm stall 4.10s and a c4 with no over drive and having to cruise on the hwy at 65 mph, that works out to a 3750 rpm cruise!!! . Hey some people may like it but I like knowing for certain I can at anytime go do a 500 mile road trip with no worries. Done it before to FL2k. If anyone had a fox that has some serious HP and they truly like to drive on the road and put down some miles beside just to the corner store and back you need to check out a transmission stand alone computer. I use the compushift 2. It had a button for o/d off so no worries of burning that little guy out, you can have multiple profiles or modes. Mode A my car shifts nice and smooth, no kicking or cherp of the tires when your just trying to cruse like if you put a hefty shift kit in a c4. On each profile you can adjust your shift points and pressure for each shift along with when the convert locks up at cruising and when you get back in to it when you want the lock up to dis engage. Also you can make it lock up on the top end of the track to gain a few mph. So basically I set it up like this. Shift at 100%throttle at 6255 rpms or you can do it by mph, and shift at 100% trans pressure. Then you work your way down 95% throttle shift a X rpms, and you can leave the pressure at 100% or dial it back. It helped a lot at the local track when the prep isn't that good it will break loose on the 1-2 shift to the point it wants to slide out(sideways and crash) so I dialed the pressure back to 93% and it's a softer shift, it slips the trans for a fractions of a sec (less then .07 sec) and it just hooks and goes. There are so many other things you can dial in and the list goes on for ever. Greatly prolonged the life of my trans and shifts smooth and easy for cruising but is a gear banging beast in mode b .heres dome pics of my motor and then of the compushift controller in the car
    #50
  11. clement

    clement Founding Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Location:
    Oak Cliff
    it runs 6.30s@108+ so far on the motor running mid 1.3 second 60' times. they are some 1971 Cleveland heads. the cam is not small.
    #51
  12. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry? SN Certified Technician Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,221
    Likes Received:
    1,313
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    South Jersey
    I have 3.70 gears in the 9" now and that may be changing with the bigger cam and possibility of trying to run in X275 this coming season. It has a powerglide with a 1.80 first gear set and the converter is a custom Cameron's piece. It's more about the slippage in the convertor than the stall speed since power management is more of an issue than anything in getting the car to 60'. The ramp retard in the FAST plays into things more than you would think. I can get this convertor to almost lock up over 7000 rpms which has proven to be awesome. In the one test pass we made with the car involving the accident, leaving off idle we were still able to go 138 mph to the 1/8th and the data is promising to hopefully see another 10 mph at least if we get it to 60' in the teens or low 1.2x's and thats before the cam change and a few other things I have brewing for the off season.
    #52

Share This Page