Supercharger or Heads, Cams and Intake... Can't Decide

[botlefed1]

hi, i have been reading posts for this topic and i also have a 2v sohc. can u tell me if it is worth it to build up the 2v or is it better to just upgrade to the dohc 4v? given that most of us are on a limited budget and these are also daily drivers. i have also read that when swapping engines u come across other expenses like computer, and wiring and what not. i would rather not go thru the extra hassle if its not going to make THAT big of a difference, but if yall think i wont be able to get the power i need to beat modified 4v's then i guess i need to consider swapping. Also, if u think its ok to mod my 2v, can u give me a specific type of cam, rods, bore, stroke, etc. to get on my car? i would like to maybe get the engine rebuilt first and then add my nitrous or save up for a sc. i have no idea about the specifics of how much to bore and all that good stuff. i am trying to learn and im getting the basics but any guidence would be great. john

 

[Blue70]

hi, i have been reading posts for this topic and i also have a 2v sohc. can u tell me if it is worth it to build up the 2v or is it better to just upgrade to the dohc 4v? given that most of us are on a limited budget and these are also daily drivers. i have also read that when swapping engines u come across other expenses like computer, and wiring and what not. i would rather not go thru the extra hassle if its not going to make THAT big of a difference, but if yall think i wont be able to get the power i need to beat modified 4v's then i guess i need to consider swapping. Also, if u think its ok to mod my 2v, can u give me a specific type of cam, rods, bore, stroke, etc. to get on my car? i would like to maybe get the engine rebuilt first and then add my nitrous or save up for a sc. i have no idea about the specifics of how much to bore and all that good stuff. i am trying to learn and im getting the basics but any guidence would be great. john

Welcome.

It all depends on what your goals are.
The 2v short block is said to hold somewhere around 500HP before you need new internals
If that is enough for you than just buy an intercooled Kenne Bell Supercharger and be done with it in one swift blow..
If 500 is not going to be enough for you than go with the Cobra engine or upgrade your shortblock

So what is your goal

 

[botlefed1]

What do u mean by internal? I could lie and say 500hp is enough, and that would be great for now, but i know that later on i am gonna want more. how would i go about "upgrading" my shortblock? would it be cheaper to do that or go with the cobra setup?

 

[Blue70]

What do u mean by internal? I could lie and say 500hp is enough, and that would be great for now, but i know that later on i am gonna want more. how would i go about "upgrading" my shortblock? would it be cheaper to do that or go with the cobra setup?

The rods are the weak link in the 4.6

I would think it would easier to find a set of rods and pistons (crank ) and a supercharger or turbo than it would be to find a new or used Cobra engine (at a reasonable price )

 

[botlefed1]

i know what u mean. i have been looking at new and used cobra engines and they arent cheap. do u think it would make any difference getting the block worked, "stroked and Poked" and add a cam, as my friends say, and then adding a sc or just go with the sc and rods and pistons?? u guys r great! this is like 24 hour tech service! i should send u some wine!! lol

 

[hotmustang331]

Im kinda with jacky here. Its so weird, freegin S/C cars with over 350RWHP are BARELY trapping any more than me . I have mild cams and stock heads. Even some 370RWHP cars are going 110. Most seem to be @ or a little over 110. Even the owner of this site (01 bullitt...S/C) runs 13.1 @ 111. And he has over 400RWHP.
Im not sure if everyone just cant drive, or there is something that makes the S/C cars not pull hard up top. You make a 400RWHP N/A car and the thing will fly lol.
just what I have seen for the most part. Anyways, either way you go will be fun. But remember S/C cars take more maintenance, and more care. If you loose fuel @ full boost, your engines good as gone...forged or not. But it seems a nice H/C/I car will run the same trap and better ETs then most stock head/cam/intake S/C cars....even though they are down on power.

 

[D'SDOUBLEOGT]

This is my daily driver and I want more power through out the entire rpm range. The KB is exactly what I need. As for running 12.9’s that’s great and all but I run 13.1’s @ 105ish now on street tires… I am hopping for low 12’s if not 11’s with the KB!!!

 

[02LaserRed2V]

If $$$ isn't that big an issue then get blown. It's a lot of fun on the street.

No matter which route you go and how much power you make, you'll always want more.

 

[Jackie Chan]

Getting the power to the ground is definitely key

I might be wrong in assuming that this is his daily driver, but like I said, why lose power where you use it the most? .....just to say you have a fast NA car?

It just don't make any sence to me

ok...how many cammed 2Vs have you d riven or how many of your friends drive them...if the answer is zero, do a lil research on this huge low end power loss on cammed 2vs and get back to me

 

[hotmustang331]

Did this guy see my 292 dyno? I have an overlay of bolton only (most) with a chip, vs cammed AND LTs (the two "lowed torque killers") I lost next to nothing way down low. Il dig up that dyno and post it here....

 

[Jackie Chan]

no, its just someone else posting hearsay info

 

[hotmustang331]

Here it is. Car feels stronger all the way around to me. bolton vs Cammed/LT

 

[Blue70]

Here it is. Car feels stronger all the way around to me. bolton vs Cammed/LT

Those are some good numbers, and it's kind of cool to compare.

I was looking at Stage 2 cams.
Below is a dyno run from a 00GT bone stock other than a set of Flowmasters.
So it looks like a bone stock 4.6 will get more power from a stage 2 cam swap than it will from "EVERY bolt on" and only be down 28HP and 15 FTlbs of torque from "EVERY bolt on" and a set of Stage 1's

I thinl that is some good info for people trying to decide where to start modding

View attachment 490818

 

[Blue70]

ok...how many cammed 2Vs have you d riven or how many of your friends drive them...if the answer is zero, do a lil research on this huge low end power loss on cammed 2vs and get back to me

No, I'm not saying the loss is huge, all I am saying is why lose any at all if you can go with a supercharger and gain a ton.

Stage 1's are good for some power, and are probably the best for a daily driver, but I personaly think if you are going to spend that much money for cams and install (unless you are swapping them your self) I would want more out of my money....that might be just me, but then again I seem to be the only one that wanted more out of a 4.10 swap too (untill I remembered the 4.6 2v is down on torque down low compared to the cars I am used to driving)

no, its just someone else posting hearsay info

It's been tested on just about every cam in just about every magazine...I don't know how you can say it's hearsay

Sept 05 MM&FF even has a Cam test "Craning our necks" and in it it says

Previous testing has shown that performance cam profiles for the 4.6 Two-Valve moter usually offer significant power goins past 4,000 rpm, but that additional power can come at the expense of low-speed torque. Such a trade-off inherent in a dramatic shift in the torque curve. True to form, the Crane cams offered impressive power gains, upping the peak power output from 297hp at 4,900 rpm to 332 hp @ 5,500 rpm

Like I said, I am not knocking a cam swap at all, I came very close to doing it myself, but after researching long and hard, I just can't see why you would
would want to lose anywhere when you can gain so much everywhere, even if you didn't lose anything down low you still will not gain as much TQ or HP through out the whole curve..and that is not hearsay

 

[Blue70]

Check out the dyno hotmustang331 posted with cams and "EVERY bolt on" and then look at the ones below,
just a KB bolted on a stock GT and see what looks like more fun for a daily driver to you.
(Check the curve under 3000RPM where you do 98% of your driving)

I thought everyone on this forum always wants more HP & TQ

View attachment 490812
View attachment 490814

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Welcome.

It all depends on what your goals are.
The 2v short block is said to hold somewhere around 500HP before you need new internals
If that is enough for you than just buy an intercooled Kenne Bell, Paxton, Vortech, Procharger, Whipple, Allen, or any proven Supercharger and be done with it in one swift blow.

Let me take some of the bias out of this sales pitch for you a little. And as far as noise goes….you’re the only owner of a 1.7L KB I’ve ever heard claim that it was a loud blower. Lots or roar and rushing air sound (which is cool in its own right), but definitely no where near as loud as an Eaton.

Check out the dyno hotmustang331 posted with cams and "EVERY bolt on" and then look at the ones below,
just a KB bolted on a stock GT and see what looks like more fun for a daily driver to you.
(Check the curve under 3000RPM where you do 98% of your driving)

I thought everyone on this forum always wants more HP & TQ

View attachment 490800
View attachment 490802

Since when does a stock GT make 247rwhp? And for that matter, I've never seen or heard of a bone stock '99-up GT making 350+rwhp on only 6psi. As a matter of fact, I've never seen a bone stock GT ever make the kind of horsepower Kenne Bell claims they do at a given boost level. What the hell kind of dyno do they use, anyway? Like I said before, I'm not knocking the blower it’s a great design and will has the potential to make a fair amount of power, but Kenne Bell advertisements and in-house statistics always read like a high-school creative writing assignment and should be taken with a grain of salt! Anyone expecting a guarantee of 350rwhp out of a 6psi KB or 405rwhp out of a 9psi KB on a bone stock car is going to be pretty disappointed. Just from this board alone, I’ll bet 80% of the owners of these blowers aren’t seeing those numbers.....or at least, not without other bolt ons to help them out.

 

[02LaserRed2V]

Since when does a stock GT make 247rwhp? And for that matter, I've never seen or heard of a bone stock '99-up GT making 350+rwhp on only 6psi. As a matter of fact, I've never seen a bone stock GT ever make the kind of horsepower Kenne Bell claims they do at a given boost level. What the hell kind of dyno do they use, anyway? Like I said before, I'm not knocking the blower it’s a great design and will has the potential to make a fair amount of power, but Kenne Bell advertisements and in-house statistics always read like a high-school creative writing assignment and should be taken with a grain of salt! Anyone expecting a guarantee of 350rwhp out of a 6psi KB or 405rwhp out of a 9psi KB on a bone stock car is going to be pretty disappointed. Just from this board alone, I’ll bet 80% of the owners of these blowers aren’t seeing those numbers.....or at least, not without other bolt ons to help them out.

You're not seeing things. KB's advertising claims are totally misleading. They claim a 160whp gain with the IC'ed kit but fail to tell you that's with a suicidal 23* timing. I was already aware of that before I purchased my KB so it was no shock to me. However, those expecting 400whp right off the bat might be disappointed. My #s are in my sig, and that's from a MPH tune with a conservative 16* timing. A/F is 10-11

 

[Blue70]

Let me take some of the bias out of this sales pitch for you a little. And as far as noise goes….you’re the only owner of a 1.7L KB I’ve ever heard claim that it was a loud blower. Lots or roar and rushing air sound (which is cool in its own right), but definitely no where near as loud as an Eaton.


Since when does a stock GT make 247rwhp? And for that matter, I've never seen or heard of a bone stock '99-up GT making 350+rwhp on only 6psi. As a matter of fact, I've never seen a bone stock GT ever make the kind of horsepower Kenne Bell claims they do at a given boost level. What the hell kind of dyno do they use, anyway? Like I said before, I'm not knocking the blower it’s a great design and will has the potential to make a fair amount of power, but Kenne Bell advertisements and in-house statistics always read like a high-school creative writing assignment and should be taken with a grain of salt! Anyone expecting a guarantee of 350rwhp out of a 6psi KB or 405rwhp out of a 9psi KB on a bone stock car is going to be pretty disappointed. Just from this board alone, I’ll bet 80% of the owners of these blowers aren’t seeing those numbers.....or at least, not without other bolt ons to help them out.

You are right, any supercharger will work, I just like the instant torque of the KB.

Here is a vid of my car, I've been told by friends it is loud,
when I am leaving they can hear it over the exhaust..
The video had the large pulley on it, it's louder now that I added 2psi

I'll have to see if I can get him to send me the raw video without the music.
but here it is anyway

http://gothammotorsports.com/ANDY03GT.mpg

 

[Blue70]

You're not seeing things. KB's advertising claims are totally misleading. They claim a 160whp gain with the IC'ed kit but fail to tell you that's with a suicidal 23* timing. I was already aware of that before I purchased my KB so it was no shock to me. However, those expecting 400whp right off the bat might be disappointed. My #s are in my sig, and that's from a MPH tune with a conservative 16* timing. A/F is 10-11

Ya, that is in the KB material if you read it

my point was you will not see the gains from cams that you will from a SC

 

[02LaserRed2V]

since my car didnt have a full exhaust and no cams and was a vert i wouldnt use it as an example, but there are numerous KB guys running in the 13's...if you dont put the power to the ground, wtf is the point

That's the same as saying what's the point of buying an exotic that can go 200mph when you'll never go that fast . More hp is fun and most here are looking for a fun street setup.

I wouldn't blame the blower for poor ETs. It's all about the suspension, tires, etc. setup. You should know better.