Superchargers

Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by Nick85, Jun 22, 2005.


  1. Nick85

    Nick85 Banned

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    I'm looking into buying a supercharger for the 05 Mustang GT.....was wondering what you guys think would be the smartest move....now I would like more power but I would also like to be as safe as possible.

    So should I go with Saleen?...is it worth the extra 1800 bucks over the Vortech?


    Any information would be appreciated...


    Cheers,

    Nick
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  2. Nick85

    Nick85 Banned

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    Forgot to mention this is for an Auto GT and a daily driver :)
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  3. crash

    crash Founding Member

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    I would do the Procharger on any of them. They are duplicating 11.60s on several cars, and the system is upgradable.

    The Roots/Screw types have a limited size intercooler core, and they are not as efficient as air to air, and there is a potential for failure or coolant leakage.

    Saleen is definitely a nice unit, and worth the additional money over the Vortech (Non-intercooled).
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  4. Nolyaw

    Nolyaw Banned

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    Roots or screw type I feel is better for a daily driver. Kenne Bells base kit, I think is the best, for daily driving. It should be available now. The company is a SOB to deal with, but his blower would be the best for every day. Also easily upgradeable ($20 pulleys). You'll feel the power around town better, unlike my PC, witch you have to rev to get the full effect. If I had to drive mine daily, I would go KenneBell. Stay away from the Vortech and Paxton. See the newest issue of 5.0 magazine for info on the Kenne Bell.
    #4
  5. crash

    crash Founding Member

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    I drove my Procharged vehicles everyday, and my Procharged F-150 would SPANK a HEMI 1500 RAM with my boat on the back of the truck.

    www.trixtersracing.com/project02.htm

    I gained 198 RWHP on it (2 valve 4.6), and have owned two (Started with the Allen Roots type, and got WAXED by an extended cab with a Procharger. BAD. I hate to lose, and I hate it when people call me saying they want more power.

    Previous blown F-150s...

    www.trixtersracing.com/project98.htm
    www.trixtersracing.com/project00.htm

    Yes, a 4300 LB truck, but still a 4.6 5-speed. NO LAG, PERIOD. The Roots made more power in only the LOWEST 500-700 RPM, after superimposing the graphs. I will never go back to positive displacement.

    To the day I sold the truck to get the 05 GT, I always had traction problems, Roots, Procharger, and TURBO (Especially the turbo, like in 3rd)

    Besides, is there another system for our cars that has proven an 11.60-11.70 ET with nothing but drag radials???
    #5
  6. Nick85

    Nick85 Banned

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    Vortech does have an intercooled supercharger out...but i'll stay away from Paxton and Vortech....right now i've got one guy going for the Procharger another going for Kenne and Belle....no one mentioned Saleen?? Anyone driven the Saleen or Kenne and Belle Superchargers? Still not sure which one to go with....i'll check out 5.0 magazine. Any other good research sites? Of course if I go to the actual blower sites they all claim to be the best....
    #6
  7. Nolyaw

    Nolyaw Banned

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    I would only use a Saleen if I HAD a Saleen. I think Lysholm makes thiers anyway. The truck guy is right, traction is harder to get with a screw type. For max power intercooling is the way to go. I just wanted to hear someones opinion on getting the Belle :) .I chose procharger because of the power gains. The Kenne is easier to install for an average guy. I guess it comes down to personal preference, but roots or screw type is better for daily driver. No auto manufacturer has ever installed a centrifugal blower on a car or truck from the factory, to my knowledge. There are reasons why.
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  8. subzero05

    subzero05 New Member

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    Not sure of the animosity towards the vortech stuff.?.They have always been at the forefront of mustang supercharging market and their kits are always top notch!..I will be installing mine next week and have personally seen (5) '05's with the vortech kits on cars and they run great!
    #8
  9. 300bhp/ton

    300bhp/ton New Member

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    not disagreeing with you just curious, but have you ever driven a twin screw powered car of the same spec on a like for like basis as it would be good to speak to someone who has, the mojority of people I've spoken to only seem to have experiance with one or the other, and as they will make A LOT more power than stock they are all impressive.


    As for lag, well a centrifugal doesn't have lag like a turbo because MOST poeple do not know what lag is, they are under the delusion that it is where in the rpms the turbo makes boost and 'kicks in', whereas lag is more concerned with 'stall' periods when the throttle is closed (ie an off boost situation) lowering the exhaust gas presure which then can cause the impellor to stall, there is then a LAG before it will build up speed again and produce boost.

    Being belt driven the centrifugal does not suffer this to the same extreme, although similar inertia forces are acting on it. What it does suffer is problems due to its inherant design. This being that high impellor rpms are required to compress the air, thus they do not make much or any boost at low rpms, and no boost will mean no power gain. As these engines are not low CR engines it doesn't matter so much as they will still produce regular power but it will be all n/a until the blower has built the boost.

    Another inherant problem with centrifugals are the sluggish repsonse to throttle variations, the science behind this is very similar to TURBO LAG, but it isn't lag just mearly sluggish.

    If you look at the most successful centrifigal blowers it will be the aviation industry, esp the WWII fighters such as the Spitfire with its Rolls Royce supercharged Merlin V12. Centrifugals work very well here because of relatively constant engine speeds, aero engines do not have a very broad rpm range so this allows the blower to produce a very constant amount of boost and produce some very impressive BHP numbers.


    Remeber all of this is fact and physics, if you disagree please find research to the contray as I would like to read it.

    On the plus side centrifugal blowers can and do produce lots of power, potentially more than any of the other types out there. But PEAK bhp numbers really don't mean anything, when driving hard you will use the entire rpm range not hold it at peak power. One day with the advent of CVT (constant velocity drive) gear boxes this may be the case but not yet.

    And remeber even though a centrifugal can produce lots of power it still takes power to run it. A turbo will always produce more on a like for like basis.

    Basically in automotive terms the centrifugal blower bridges the gap between the positive displacement blower (twin screw) and the turbo. Whether its the best or the worse of both worlds is for each to decide.

    The only other points for consideration is the fact that the centrigual blower has been around longer than the twin screw, yet it to my knowledge has never been used on a production car, nor has it had any success at top level compitition either. Top Fuelers run twin screw blowers and race cars (GT and such) use turbo's - THERE MUST BE A REASON FOR THIS.

    11.60 ET is very impressive, but that is hardly every day driving, which is where the biggest difference between all of the FI types will show up.

    Also, I haven't yet seen any times for the other blowers out there, but I guess like for like they will be very similar. KB rate their 9psi kit on the 2v GT at over 400rwhp with proven 12.2 @113mph on DR's so pretty close considering its about 60rwhp down on PEAK power, ultimatley their 9psi kit has the potential to push the car to 11.6 ET's but I guess suspension work would probably be needed and a VERY VERY good driver. So the new forthcoming kit for the 3v unit should be very exciting, as the s197 platform is much better than the sn95.
    #9
  10. vacooley

    vacooley New Member

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    Some late '20s and early '30s automakers tried centrifugal superchargers. The engines of the time were very slow turning compared to modern engines. The superchargers were very problematic due to the limiited choices of material they had to work with back in those days.

    Metallurgy has com a long way. But the physics just doesn't change. Centrifugals (turbos included) still work on a narrower power band than positive displacement chargers. However, when at their optimum RPM they are generally more efficient.
    #10
  11. crash

    crash Founding Member

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    Lag is associated with 4 bangers with little bottom end torque to begin with.

    Properly spec'd turbos on a V-8 will have NO LAG, in fact, will pin you in the seat before you see boost. A T-67 wil spool QUICKLY, meaning tire incineration from 1st through OD. With my T-67, I made 100 FT/LBS more than an 04 Cobra at the same 16 PSI, but no, mine did not hit as hard on the bottom (More fogiving launch).

    The only SCREWs available for our trucks have been the KB, and I do not use non- intercooled kits, so NO I have not owned one. I have done the Roots, Procharger, and Turbocharger on the same platform though. Whipple will release one soon.

    What I do know is we have never seen an aftermarket Roots/SCREW take a Procharger on the same platform in the 1/4 mile, and definitely not on the top end.

    Here is a Procharged 4.6 F-150 vs a Lightning (The best example of a comparison I have). The 4.6 left a little early, but the Roots would never have caught him.

    Procharged NON-PI 4.6 vs a 5.4 Lightning...

    www.trixtersracing.com/mac.htm

    The Procharger I am referring to is the BASE kit, not the tuner or RACE system, and daily driver reliability is there.

    The only other E.T.s on an 05 GT kit I have seen is Vortech, and they only went 13.0s in the 5.0 Magazine. Get the June issue of 5.0 Mustang and SuperFords.
    #11
  12. crash

    crash Founding Member

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    I know Vortech makes good units. They have been around a long time. Just not for me. I wont tap my oil pan and void my warranty.

    If I had an engine failure, I can remove a Procharger in 2 hours and get in for service with no hassle. No one will say "What is that hole in the oil pan for?". Although this is not an issue for me. I install Prochargers for a local dealer.

    Besides, the kit I bought has tested 1.5 seconds quicker (+ or -) 40 HP if another grand is spent on the aftercooler.

    And regardless, I have yet to drive a Procharged equipped 5-speed car that was sluggish. I couldn't shift fast enough.
    #12
  13. 300bhp/ton

    300bhp/ton New Member

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    No not really, LAG is more evident on production vehicles which for the most part tend to be 4 cylinder or very expensive supercars.

    So most peoples experience is only with 4 cylinder cars. Cars such as the Ferrari F40 and Jaguar XJ220 suffer from lag, but you'd need to be fool to say the turbo's arn't properly spec'd as both companies would have spent 6 or 7 figure numbers in R&D on the road and track.

    What appears to be lag, either the wrong definition of where the turbo kicks in or the real lag under stall periods, this low performance is mearly highlighted because the engines are low compression, a 2.0 WRX off boost is proberbly struggling to break 100bhp anywhere in the rpms, once the boost kicks in and takes it over 200bhp it is really noticable.

    By taking a high CR engine like the Ford 4.6 with 300bhp it will still hall ass even off boost, the bigger limiting factor is the amount of boost you can run. 15psi is proberbly amount max with some going to 20psi but a proper lowe CR engine like a 2.0 Ford Cosworth unit will handle near 40psi if required.

    Durability aside. There are a few 2.0 16v Cosworths making some real serious power, highest I've seen is 511bhp. Not sure if it was wheel or crank but either way its impressive. I have a feeling it was at the wheels and with the 4wd setup that is a lot of power. They where running mid/high 10's.
    #13
  14. gp001

    gp001 Founding Member

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    I waiting for everyone else to be the guinea pig. I have heard from several sources (one of them tore down a 3V before the Mustang was even released) that the ring lands are too small (especially the top one) and won't like boost. I hope I am wrong because I would like to stick a super cheater (I mean charger) on there for the easy power.
    #14
  15. Nolyaw

    Nolyaw Banned

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    Exactamundo!! These are the main arguments for going with the ProCharger!!
    #15
  16. Nolyaw

    Nolyaw Banned

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    The top ring is stainless. This is not IDEAL for boost but works. When I get my Cammer 5.0, I'll let you know how it holds up to boost...
    #16
  17. subzero05

    subzero05 New Member

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    Granted, they won't see an oil fitting but they WILL see the PCM was reprogrammed regardless if you put it back to the stock tune or not...How do I know this: I have the predator on now and just out of curiousity figured I would leave the program on the car when i took it into to get serviced since I am friends with the service MGR.. I mentioned nothing of the tune being on the car and never spoke if it before, but when I got the car back his quote to me was : "so, how does the new programming affect the cars performance?..Do you like it?"..We both laughed and of course he wouldn't rat me out since we are friends, but for those who are wondering if ford WILL SEE a tune...THEY WILL!..So, either way if you have an oil fitting tapped with a tune or a procharger kit with a tune, the dealer will see the PCM was flashed with the tuner...end result: unless you are friends with the dealer,you will be dealing with the potential of your warranty being revoked..Just FYI for those who are interested
    #17
  18. bigcat

    bigcat start with the upper hole, and if more traction is

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    A: you left the tune installed
    B: you took it in for service---what was done? oil change? engine light? drivability problem? tranny blown?
    without this information, we cant see a valid point to your post. also, maybe your buddy just wanted to see if you had it done.....
    #18
  19. Power Surge

    Power Surge Founding Member

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    We are going to be using a positive displacement supercharger on our 05 project. I've run all types of blowers on past vehicles, and I prefer this type of blower on anything but an all out race vehicle. Even then, a good positive displacement blower can still outperform a centrifugal on certain setups. The main problem with running a good positive displacement blower is that there are very few out there. I was going to run the Whipple, but they aren't out yet. I wouldn't put a KB on my worst enemy's car. But now that Saleen has their Series VI twin screw kit, we are going to run that. I've not been a fan of Saleens prior blower kits, but they really hit a home run with the 05 setup. It's very clean, has a factory look to it, has a quality Lysholm rotor pack, and performs awesome. I've got a lot of experiance with twin screws, and it's really nice to have the low end power of a blower like this, as compared to a centrifugal. And as far as top end power, let's just say that even at 26psi when I ran the Whipple on our Lightning, there was never a power drop off issue. We are planning to limit our 05 project to 500 rwhp on the stock motor for now. We'll see how it goes, I still need to GET one of the blowers :D .
    #19
  20. Nick85

    Nick85 Banned

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    I've decided to go with the Saleen....it seems to put the least amount of stress on the engine...and you can't fault Saleen....they don't build junk.
    #20

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