T5 reverse spring

[stangman16]

When you say you broke the dog rings, do you mean the synchro rings? Those are a matched set, did you put the new ones on as they came or could they have gotten out of orientation on you? Or maybe you got the OD synchro on in reverse orientation?

Sorry, I think the guy at the shop I bought the replacement parts called them "dogs" and I'm not sure why I said dog rings... after looking up the 2004 post I had, I see they are to "provide tension to the sliders so they don't just move around." I did this back at the end of 2004, and I have not driven the car much since then. 3-10 times maybe and after that 5th gear incident I didn't even bother trying to go back into 5th.

I'm going to pull the tranny this weekend and take it apart and check the OD synchro as suggested and install that reverse spring. I want to ensure I didn't break anything when I ripped it out of 5th.

 

[Mustang5L5]

Check the "Dog teeth" on the gear and make sure they are nice and crisp and pointly looking. They shouldn't be mangled or rounded over. This may cause the grea to stick.

Also, slight load would hold the trans in a gear. You say you need to stop the entire car, or do you have to turn the engine off? Just just cant do it from a roll?? At a dead stop with the engine on and off will it come out of 5th??

 

[stangman16]

Check the "Dog teeth" on the gear and make sure they are nice and crisp and pointly looking. They shouldn't be mangled or rounded over. This may cause the grea to stick.

Also, slight load would hold the trans in a gear. You say you need to stop the entire car, or do you have to turn the engine off? Just just cant do it from a roll?? At a dead stop with the engine on and off will it come out of 5th??

Yup, I tried a slight roll with engine on / off. Tried it at a dead stop with engine on/off and I finally just yanked it out of 5th at a dead stop with the engine off. 1st through 4th & Reverse work just fine

So a slight load could cause it to hold 5th gear only? I didn't check the load when I put it back together, I don't know how to. And being young and naive I tried putting it back together exactly as it came apart with the same shims I took out from it. All I did was replace those dog teeth (thanks for the correction) So it looks like I need to figure out how to set the load correctly..?

 

[Mustang5L5]

By slight load, i mean from the clutch dragging. If you are saying you need the engine off to pull it out of 5th, that tells me the clutch is still grabbing slightly and putting a slight load on the driveline. The dog teeth are designed in such a way that when the driveline is loaded, it would be very difficult to pull a trans out of gear. It keeps things meshed at WOT. If you floor it in 1st and try to pull to 2nd, you'll find you can't. Some guys shift by flooring it while pulling to 2nd. Then when they kick the clutch in, the trans will shift to 2nd as soon as the load comes off the clutch and the trans can get some slight slack. Do that along with power shifting and it's a very fast efficient way to shift. (although wears the dog teeth out). You have a little more leverage in 1-4 gear because the forks are directly connected to the shift rail, but 5th and reverse are not directly shifted as you can see. Reverse has no synchro/dog teeth and is straight cut gears, so it's easy to pull out

The dog teeth are attached to the gears, so to replace them, you would have to replace the gears. The "blocker rings" are the small donut rings that sandwich between the gear and the synchro slider? Is this what you replaced??

Here's 5th gear in a working t-5. The dog teeth are just visable attached to the gear past the shift fork

And here's a shot of the pre-90 spring installed

 

[stangman16]

These?

Although it's been over two years, it seems like those look like what I had changed, except for I can almost swear the ones I changed were inside the transmission, as I had to take out the internals to get to it. Are there some inside as well? If there's not any inside, then I must have taken the internals to a shop to ask what was broken... dang my memory sucks since it's been so long. But if it's improper clutch adjustment that is the cause of my problem, then I would be more than happy to adjust the clutch than to dig into the tranny again..

 

[Mustang5L5]

Those are called "synchronizer inserts" and are typically part of the synchro assembly. There are 3 of them in each of the 3 synchronizers, so there are 6 internally inside the trans. 3 in the 1-2 synchro and 3 in the 3-4 synchro as well as the 3 inside the 5th gear synchro.

If improperly installed, they can lead to the problem you have. In fact, now i think they may definitely not be installed correctly. The synchro ring has a specific orientation to the hub as there are small grooves in the ring which along with the inserts. Also the springs must run opposite to keep proper tension.

I think you should disregard the spring (or change it if you want) and focus on the synchronizer.

 

[stangman16]

Those are called "synchronizer inserts" and are typically part of the synchro assembly. There are 3 of them in each of the 3 synchronizers, so there are 6 internally inside the trans. 3 in the 1-2 synchro and 3 in the 3-4 synchro as well as the 3 inside the 5th gear synchro.

If improperly installed, they can lead to the problem you have. In fact, now i think they may definitely not be installed correctly. The synchro ring has a specific orientation to the hub as there are small grooves in the ring which along with the inserts. Also the springs must run opposite to keep proper tension.

I think you should disregard the spring (or change it if you want) and focus on the synchronizer.

I will try and pull the tranny as soon as I can to take it apart. I'm doing a cowl vent change so it might be a little while before I can jack up the car and drop the trans. I'm still waiting on the cowl vents to come in. But I will definitely take a look at that 5th synchro - I appreciate the help & knowledge!

 

[stangman16]

Okay, almost a year later and I'm at the point where I need to get this trans fixed and back in the car. (This is my first project car, and I'm understanding the word 'project' more clearly..)

I took the tailhousing off and found one of the dog teeth (or dogs?) and still have to find the other one. I'm assuming the dogs came off when I had yanked it out of 5th. So I guess I need to take 5th synchro completely out to analyze it.

What I don't understand is how I possibly could have put them in wrong, it seemed as the three went on only 1 way. Any suggestions for this next time when I put them on?

On this one, when I took the tailhousing off, the bronze-looking insert was hanging as such. BUt I believe that's how it was when I originally took the trans apart the first time.

This is one of the dog teeth (or dogs? whatever they're called)

Above the dog is some oil, that kinda looks like aluminum paint... so I'm assuming it's metal shavings mixed with it. Which must not be good...

I was hoping to not take the top cover off the trans since 1st-4th work just fine, but should I go ahead and take it off to inspect anyhow?

 

[Mustang5L5]

Wow, i forgot i ever posted in this thread.

ANyway looks like you have one of the rarer T-5's with a synchronized Reverse gear. That's what the brass ring hanging off is. Granted it shouldn't be like that.

Compare it to the pics i posted early. There is a small plate on the end that slides over the inserts and holds them in place.

Check this page out
http://pomoforacing.com/tech/T5Rebuild2002.pdf

go to page 16 of the PDF and it shows the different components for the non-synchroed 5th and the synchroed 5th. Confirm you do in fact have all the parts you need and that they are not damaged. If the brass ring was laying out like that, then it would let an insert pop out and it makes the trans VERY hard to shift.

Since i can see the snap ring still in place, and the brass insert was taken off...something was not installed correctly. I don't see the washer that holds it all in place in which the snap ring slips over.

As for the inserts. What i do is wrap the spring in the opposite directions. For example, i loop both hooks of the synchro ring springs in the same insert, but have them flow is different directions. The tails will trail off differently.

You could just source the plate that slides over the inserts and deletes the reverse synchro if you wanted as well.

 

[stangman16]

Okay, it appears I have an early style housing, with a late model 5th synchro setup. The only reason it was working is because the rebuilder had broken off the tab on the washer. Plus I'm missing and insert.. it was there when I put it in, but now it's gone. I assume it was torn up in the gear and thus the reason why all the small particles of metal shavings in the oil. I cleaned the oil up and will be needing 3 new inserts. Inspected parts and other then the c-clip, a missing insert, and one dented, no other damage found.

According to the diagram on page 16 of the pdf, since my housing is an early model I would need to ditch the ones in red and would need to purchase pieces in green? Is there a website you could refer me to where I can order them online?

 

[Mustang5L5]

According to the diagram on page 16 of the pdf, since my housing is an early model I would need to ditch the ones in red and would need to purchase pieces in green? Is there a website you could refer me to where I can order them online?

Well the clip on the end is the same, so technically all you need is the part on the left on the bottom row.

Finding a late-model housing is tough. I tried to find one to retrofit a reverse synchro in my t-5 but it was hard to find or guy were clueless as to giving me the correct numbers to see if their housing was the one i want.

Either way..it's not that good anyway.

You can try hanlon motorsports for that part. I forget what it's called, or you can try to see is anyone has a parts t-5 kicking around that could dig that peice out for you. I've done it int he past for misc spare parts i've needed.

 

[stangman16]

Awesome, thank you!

One thing I do not understand is how you can tell if the transmission is WC or NWC ?

I tried going by the illustrations in the Tremec service manual I have, but that did not help me figure out which I have.

 

[Mustang5L5]

Well most Mustang T-5's are WC....all t-5's after mid 1985.

Easiest way to tell when it's apart is the syncrhro blocker rings. If the blocker rings for 1-4 gear are brass like the rings on 5th gear/reverse, then it's a non-WC.

The WC t-5 has paper-lined blocker rings that will look black

 

[94 Cobra 5.0]

I just recently rebuilt my t-5 so let me check around the garage and see if i have any extra parts lying around and ill post what i have.

 

[tyrantfour]

has anyone ever figured out how the torsion spring goes on? does anybody have a picture of how it attaches? i cant find anything anywhere

 

[Lscam580]

Pin on reverse fork, one end of spring locks to that ,shaft slides through spring then other end of spring locks to pin in case next to where reverse shaft meets case

 

[tyrantfour]

thanks for the reply lscam580 but thats for the tension spring setup. i have the torsion spring. the tension spring would be tremendously easier.