Digital Tuning Taming The Timing Eating T4m0

Discussion in '1994 - 1995 Specific Tech' started by joetrainer31, Jan 18, 2014.


  1. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Hello brainiacs,

    I have a 95 GT 5sp and I would like to have the ECM performing [more like] my old 93 A9L. So, what is the easiest way to eliminate the tip in retard in the T4M0? The car has other mods, but I'm mostly concerned with the timing pulls/retards. Any advice?
     
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  2. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    The TIP_MIN_SPK scalar should take care of you (set to zero). Table FN2020 (Spark - TIP in Retard Control) should also be adjusted or zero'd out to remove it completely. The stock tune only has tip-in control occur at a few low-load / low-rpm situations so it's probably not a big deal. I have it off (zero out the scalar and zero'd out the table too just for good measure).

    Since you're looking to behave more like the old A9L one of the biggest things I can suggest is changing the load calculation strategy. This will give you the best of both worlds -- the fast processing speeds / IO of the SN95 computer but more of the mod-friendly nature of the A9L. Change parameter PRLDSW - Air-Load Scaling Switch from 2 to 1. This will alter the nature of the whole beast -- if you make a change which improves your volumetric efficiency, you'll now see higher load which the computer determines based on airflow and RPM (which is the basis for tons of other calculations). The stock value of this parameter (1) determines load based on maximum theoretical volumetric efficiency in table FN035. Which flies out the window if you add mods that improve your VE and basically makes them useless as bolt-ons until you change this switch. Once you do, you find your missing gains -- super important if you're doing something like H-C-I or Forced Induction, even important for CAI and throttle body improvements.

    The last thing is to form the realization that fuel-trims are not used outside of closed-loop. This means at idle and at WOT (based on TPS voltage) your fueling is directly calculated from your injector flow. The ECU continues to calculate and display fuel trims, and you can even turn on the "learning" function at those RPM/Load points (idle & wot) using FN1325 but it won't mean a darned thing. I learned this after wasting much time trying to figure out how the ECU worked trying to address a lean idle / cruise condition (bucking). So make sure your injectors are dialed in properly (remember that many aftermarket injectors are flow-rated at 43.5psi, not 39 that you're getting at the fuel rail, which makes them act smaller than their rated flow so you should put in the REAL number for high & low slope adjusted for fuel pressure). This small tip was a source of much frustration and makes a lot of folks think the computer's impossible to tune. It's not.
     
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  3. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    jozsefsz,

    wow! thank you for all the helpful info. I have 1 question; what hardware do I need to accomplish your directions?
     
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  4. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    Sure, you're very welcomed! For hardware you have a few options. The first, if you're less comfortable tuning yourself (there's a learning curve involved), would be to get something like an SCT Chip with free "tunes for life" from someplace like American Muscle. They'd probably provide you with a 91-octane tune as well, and removing tip-in-retard is probably something they do as a matter of course. Whenever you add mods in the future they'll re-tune you for free. The only real limitation is they won't do extreme tunes (like Turbo or Supercharger) since that's best done on a dyno.

    If you do want to DIY, Tweecer and Moates Quarterhorse are the most popular options. Moates was my choice because it's less expensive and better quality hardware. Along with the hardware you'll also want software - Tweecer comes with its own (CalEdit) and for Moates you have some options but my favorite (and many peoples' since it's really top notch) is Clint Garrity's Binary Editor. Along with Binary Editor you can get optional software (EEC Analyzer) that has a lot of built-in popular upgrades and tools to help with the tuning.

    DIY is a lot of fun if you're in it for the long haul and want to learn something in the process. If you have less time or interest then the mail-order tunes are probably the next best thing. Finally of course is the dyno tune which is more thorough, more expensive, and probably best done if you're making some major mods.
     
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  5. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Thanks again for the info. You are a wealth of knowledge to us older school guys who never needed to tune before. I'm probably gonna come back to this thread once I settle on an option.
     
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  6. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    And the funny thing is I'm trying at the same time to learn the old school way of doing things! I'm setting up a Holley 4-barrel to work with a turbo I'm fabricating on a Mustang II. Jets, pumps, floats, timing with weights, it's crazy. I think the electronic version is easier! So ask away, and good luck. I'll be doing the same thing on the other forum. :)
     
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  7. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Ok then, next question. I found a company on ebay that advertises custom Moates chips. I simply tell him what I want, and the kind or hardware I have and he makes the program. He does SCT too, but I'd rather have the Moates. Thoughts?
     
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  8. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    The chips are probably largely the same. A lot of the dyno-tuners seem to use SCT so if there's a chance you would ever want to dyno in the future that may be good to keep in mind. The Moates chip they'd use is not going to be a QuarterHorse (with data-logging etc.) but rather their write-only chip (just like the SCT). I'd be more concerned about making sure the eBay seller is good / qualified / responsive (via feedback) and also what happens if you need a change in a few years. For these reasons it might be better to go with something like AM Bama tunes and tunes-for-life even though it's a little more expensive.
     
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  9. Decipha

    Decipha Member

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    incorrect, 0 demands 0 degrees of timing during a tip in, set it to 60 to disable

    incorrect, stock value on a fox is 0 and stock on an sn is 2
    1= perload is set to load which doesn't use fn035 at all

    0= load / fn035
    2 = pct_load (inferred) from fn1036 mostly

    incorrect, prldsw can be set to 0 1 or 2, if the rest of the tune is dialed in all will be fine

    incorrect, learned fuel trims will be referenced AND APPLIED from other conditions/cells when the value of that cell is negative
     
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  10. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    incorrect, 0 demands 0 degrees of timing during a tip in, set it to 60 to disable No it doesn't demand 0 degrees of timing during a tip-in. I did a little more reading and bumping this value above total timing expected as you suggest would disable it. This parameter is the minimum total timing being commanded for tip-in-retard to be requested, the actual amount of timing pulled out being commanded by FN2020 (which I also suggested be zero'd out).

    incorrect, stock value on a fox is 0 and stock on an sn is 2 Since the OP says he has a 95GT it's an SN95. So my statement is correct. And setting it to "1" allows load to be calculated against airflow and RPM. I'll give you that Fox may be 0, but that's really not pertinent nor do I care since I don't tune for a living. Edit: I see that I fat-fingered and said the stock value was one, even though I correctly typed in earlier that you want to change from 2 to 1.

    incorrect, prldsw can be set to 0 1 or 2, if the rest of the tune is dialed in all will be fine No one said it wouldn't be fine. Just that adjusting this scalar makes the overall function of the computer more mod-friendly in my actual, real-world, data-logged experience.

    incorrect, learned fuel trims will be referenced AND APPLIED from other conditions/cells when the value of that cell is negative I'm referring only to idle and WOT conditions FYI where it can APPLY until the cows come home but the computer doesn't use the learned values at idle or WOT. Even within the adaptive learning description of the CBAZA strategy you'll find this disclaimer: WARNING: either the top or bottom row is for the special idle cells and is yet to be determined.

    To summarize:

    There appears to be plenty of "incorrect" to go around. I think we could agree that none of what's written would cause anyone an ounce of pain (you don't like it one way, try another). There are some parameters where no one has made heads or tails of what they do (you'll find that honestly described in Binary Editor).
     
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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  11. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Okay, so I'm really considering getting a Moates w/the BE software. Is that the software I need in order to adjust the TIP_MIN_SPARK, etc that you are talking about? Will this also allow the T4M0 to handle a mild cam change w/o throwing an idle surge, stalling fit?
     
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  12. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    Yes, you can adjust everything you mention and a whole lot more (I sound like a salesman, I have no affiliation with either Moates or BE). There are a lot of factors that can cause idle surge so that might take some trial & error but if it's not hardware-related (like a blown head gasket) you'll be able to adjust for it (you'll have complete control over the behavior of that troublesome IAC and your idle, even your injector timing which tweaking can help with a cam).

    If I could suggest, download Binary Editor and EEC Analyzer from eecanalyzer.net and take it for a spin (you don't have to buy anything). You can see just how powerful it is. EEC Analyzer even has a function where you can select your cam specs (or from a list of common cams) and it will spit out a recommended injector timing chart.

    The software & hardware can definitely do what you want to do. The only real question is if you have the time & patience to learn (and make an occasional mistake). It's not for everyone (that's why the mail-order and dyno tuners exist) but downloading and tinkering with the software can help you decide if it's right for you.
     
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  13. Decipha

    Decipha Member

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    Im not trying to get in a ****in match im here just to share knowledge

    the top row (absolute) of the adaptive table 80,81,82,83 are the special idle cells that correspond to the same permissions as the isckam corrections

    80 (isckam0) Idle in drive ac off
    81 (isckam1) Idle in drive ac on
    82 (isckam2) Idle in neutral ac off
    83 (isckam3) Idle in neutral ac on

    The bottom row is load based and nothing special

    there isnt much of any mystery remaining regarding the cbaza ecus

    also your probably not aware but tip_min_spk is not the only tip in spark retard limiter, tip_tr_trig is the tip in max tq ratio allowed, that too needs to be null but judging by your response to tje adaptive table and quoting the junk xls Im willing to bet you dont have access to it

    im not trying to be harsh just putting valid info other there
     
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  14. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    My knowledge here begins and ends with what I've done with Binary Editor and tuning a single SN95 for a turbo, hopefully I've disclaimed appropriately that I'm an amateur self-tuner so you won't get a #$*!@-match. Your knowledge here is impressive, thank you... I could never have derived this from the tools that I have (and the idle cell information is great to have). You're right I have no access to tip_tr_trig. I'm sure my techniques aren't perfect (there's some trial & error) but that's the nature of DIY -- doing what you can with what you have and scanning the datalogs & doing test-drives to validate the result. That's the part I try to mention to those who get excited about self-tuning... it's a lot of fun with a good-sized learning curve but it's still a bit of an imperfect science from our viewpoint. There are cases where getting a professional tune make more sense -- I've been able to get by personally making some mistakes along the way no doubt. Your sharing your experience is appreciated.
     
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  15. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Thanks for the info! There doesn't need to be any arguing here, or fear of one. I think its great that we can all (except I know nothing in this area), pitch in with our knowledge of tuning the T4M0. Jozsefsz has been very helpful. Now it seems that Decipha is being helpful. That's great. That's what the forum is here for -to be helpful to others. I'd like to rely on guys like you when I get my Moates BE, & EecAnalyzer.

    Decipha, I had no idea that there was a torque retard too! It seems that Ford was very concerned over their T5 because they killed the 5 liter in 94-95 w/programming. Talk about water on a camp fire.

    Concerning the tip_tr_trig & the max tq ratio allowed, is that something I can access and modify with a Moates, BE, & EecAnalyzer? I'd like to change the spark tables, how the ECU computes load (thanks Jozsefsz), and now, thanks to you the tq limiter. If the Moates and software will not allow me access & change, what will?
     
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  16. Decipha

    Decipha Member

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    If you want to CORRECTLY tune a 94-95 mustang youll need to get the COMPLETE cbaza def from sailorbob, its on $25 and worth 20x that, heres his contact info

    http://info.efidynotuning.com/derek.htm
     
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  17. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    Thank you. I'll certainly scoop that up. So then, if I'm understanding correctly, I will need Moates hardware, BE, EecAnalyzer, and the stuff from sailorbob?
     
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  18. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    I'm always interested in doing things as well as I can and any improvement for a modest fee I'd also like to get. I googled for the "sailorbob CBAZA strategy" and it appears there's some discussion about whether or not it works with both BE2010 / BE2012 (does it?). I also didn't find any posts where your name (Decipha) wasn't associated with it (ie no positive independent feedback). I'm not sure how widespread this is -- not sure if it matters other than how frequently it's updated and who supports it if "sailorbob" gets tired of it (the open source community is a benefit imho).

    I saw on one of your posts you mentioned how many scalars, functions, tables were mapped out and that it was well-documented and enhanced data-logging capabilities.

    1108 scalars
    229 functions
    55 tables

    How does this compare to the open source version? In the interest of full disclosure, you don't "need" sailorbob's strategy to do anything correctly -- many many people using the open source strategies (including myself for 4 years now on a turbo) and lots of cars running very well having never heard of sailorbob. I can't think of anything I "can't" tune -- from our earlier conversation the tip_tr_tq scalar doesn't have much practical value if you get rid of it altogether through FN2020 I'd imagine.

    With that said, for a modest price if it offers a benefit I'd purchase it as well.

    Any way we could ask for a screen-shot maybe that shows some of the differences or maybe just an example where the open source descriptions fall short and the sailorbob version is awesome? You mention the tip_tr_trig earlier (not present in the open source strategy) but hopefully there's something more that can be easily shown? I realize it's only $25 but every little bit counts in my book. If I should rather be asking "sailorbob" please let me know as well.

    (oh and my apologies to joetrainer, this conversation is kind of hi-jacking his thread and maybe a little too deep for someone just getting started)
     
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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  19. joetrainer31

    joetrainer31 Member

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    I'm thinking I want to get the Moates, yet I'm also intimidated by the whole thing. I'd really like my car tuned. If I go ahead and get the setup I will also spring for the sailorbob add-on. I'd like all my bases covered, and its only $25 more after already setting my wallet on fire.

    I'd be happy to FaceTime/Skype with you when I get it and let you see what's going on. It would probably be helpful to both of us. This way you can see if you want it. If its a bust, then its $25 out of my pocket, not yours. Sound good?
     
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  20. jozsefsz

    jozsefsz Active Member

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    I'd be happy to work with you when you get all set up. If it were me I wouldn't pull the trigger on the sailorbob thing just yet -- it's important to know if it works with the version of BE you want, and also to learn a little more about it. BE ships / installs with the "open source" publicly available strategies I mention. I realize it's only $25 and I appreciate your offer, but I hope to avoid having this get unnecessarily confusing for you starting out. You can swap over the strategy at absolutely any time (probably in seconds) and you lose nothing if you started out with the ones that come with BE. If you get QH&BE ordered and installed and get comfortable with it, you can decide to add the sailorbob strategy any time you think you're ready. No rush there -- I know it's tempting to just buy everything at once but I'd keep it as simple and minimal as possible. In my book $25 is $25, and "sailorbob" can toss me a screenshot if he thinks I should buy his product. :)
     
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