Tech talk, 5.0 HO vs LSx...

[ratio411]

Don't flame me too hard. I want a serious tech discussion.
I know engines in general and I am first and foremost a Ford man.
However, I don't know the specifics on EFI 5.0 HO powered vehicles,
AND
even though I am a Ford man, I know a good thing when I see it and
I like many other makes/models.

I am best with general engine theory and hands on with carb'd old
school engines. I joined Stangnet to hang out in the Classics section and
that is where all my post count has been. Mostly talking about carbs,
points to electronic conversions, and 351c swaps.
Nothing modern whatsoever.

I knew a good thing when the 4th (last) gen Z28s were out and owned 3
over the years for daily drivers. My last was an LS1/T-56 that I used as my
avitar when I joined Stangnet just to have some fun with fellow Ford lovers.

Anyway, this car made 318 rwhp with nothing more than a muffler change.
Nothing else, and you notice I said muffler, not cat-back, ORP, or headers.

Then I come here, to the 5.0 EFI HO section of Stangnet and read scary things like:

If your shooting for 300RWHP then your going to need to do the Heads, cam and
Intake (upper lower intake) Free up the exhaust w/ some actual headers, mid pipe
and cat back system. Throw in a bigger Throttle Body and some Under Drive pulleys
and that should get you in the 285-295 range and a tune to top it all off.

Over all that amount of mods will cost in the ball park of $3,000 but will be more then
enough to keep away the buzzing run of the mill rice.

So what is it about an LSx that it can be dead stock, dead reliable, idle at 600 rpm,
get 30 mpg, and still have 300+ rwhp?

Why should I have to go radical to get the same results with my beloved 302?

 

[Venom351R]

The LS1 engines are bigger then the standard Mustang Engines but beyond that they were also very stout.

A H/C/I 302 will find it hard getting to 300 RWHP. A stock 2002 SS Camaro will put down 300 stock. Just the way it is the camaro has always been a more powerful engine but the Mustang has always sold more.

 

[ratio411]

Oh, I'd also like to mention that the kid that bought my last Z28 that dynoed
at 318 rwhp did some mods to the car and dynoed it before and after.

When he bought it from me, it had a lid, muffler, and TB coolant bypass.
That gave him 330 rwhp. Then he put headers, ORP, full cat-back, and
had it dyno tuned. He left the dyno with 375 rwhp! 80k miles, the engine
has never been cracked open, and it still uses the stock TB for cryin' out loud.
Do you realize what kind of HP that is at the crank?

 

[Bad92GT]

throw a mostly stock windsor in there. It will be much more comparable

 

[Venom351R]

throw a mostly stock windsor in there. It will be much more comparable

Yeah that's the thing the 351W is a much more comparable motor to the LS1 then the 302 is but the problem is other then the 95 R there are no factory 351 powered mustangs and since then ford has made them smaller not increasing the CID

 

[ratio411]

So if I were to shoot for similar results from an SN95, I either need to start
with a 347 stroker or convert to a 351w?

I have always been a big proponent of stroking a 351w to 393 or 408 since
the end cost is generally the same as a 331 or 347 anyway. Stronger IMO too.

I wonder how hard a 408w would be to swap into an SN95? I know with a
carb'd Ford, the swap is generally easy, but I worry about all the EFI electronics.

I have a 1996 351w roller block laying in a corner of my shop...:stirpot:

 

[Venom351R]

351 VS 347 is a heated debate but when it comes down to it the 347 is at the max of the 302 block, the 351 can go to 393, 408, 418,427.

The 302 computer can be used w/ a 351. As far as all the other ods adn ends Im not sure how easy/difficult it is.

 

[ratio411]

I am hoping that the MAF system will allow a simple swap over.
The MAF doesn't know you put more cubes in there. It just
measures the incoming air. I know it can't be that simple,
but hope springs eternal!

It isn't happening soon. This 5.0 I just got is going to my teen
son, so big power is NOT a priority. I am just making plans as
though I have a 5.0 because I am falling in love with his car
and hoping to find one for myself. If that happens, a 408w is
not out of the question.

 

[final5-0]

We been through all this many times over

Like has been already said ... The Chevy has got 50 more cubes

Even if you use a Windsor in the comparison

Look at the diffenence in technology

I mean ... A Windsor is nothing but a bigger sbf built in the early 60's

It is plain and simple ...
The Chevy motor is a factory built hot rod power plant using today's tech

A comparison here is like apples and oranges
not
Apples to Apples

Ford has not built a pr motor like Chevy has

All Ford has done for us is give us that glorified motorcycle motor
which is too dadgum small

Grady

 

[ratio411]

It's more like 44 cubes between 302 and 346. But who's counting?

Yeah, I wish Ford had gone further for us, but you see where Ford is
right now vs Chevy going back to DC and begging for tax money.

I can't afford a new car right now, but I am giving GM money anyway,
and getting nothing in return. I always knew that car companies and
dealers would get your money any crooked way possible, but until now
you would get something for your money. Now they just go 'over
our heads' and get it. Power to the sheeple!

 

[Stopsign32v]

Oh, I'd also like to mention that the kid that bought my last Z28 that dynoed
at 318 rwhp did some mods to the car and dynoed it before and after.

When he bought it from me, it had a lid, muffler, and TB coolant bypass.
That gave him 330 rwhp. Then he put headers, ORP, full cat-back, and
had it dyno tuned. He left the dyno with 375 rwhp! 80k miles, the engine
has never been cracked open, and it still uses the stock TB for cryin' out loud.
Do you realize what kind of HP that is at the crank?

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The LS1 is a 346cid motor with aluminum heads and alot more technology in it. And you are comparing it to a old iron based, small ironed headed 302cid motor. The 331 stroker I am building should make between 420-460rwhp I've been told. And it is still smaller than the 346cid LS1 motor. So you see....apples to apples. However at the end of the day the LSX motor is designed much better, however that does not mean it will be faster.

 

[ratio411]

I just thought of another subject to stir up trouble!

Which ECM do you folks think is better for performance use?

You do realize that the 5.0, 351w, and LSx all have the same FO!
(Firing order)

That means that one could use the LSx ECM on a Ford engine, and
in theory convert it to distributorless ignition, among other things.

Of course I am not advocating this mod out and out. I am just throwing
that out for discussion to see if there is any practical benefit. To me,
the deletion of the distributor has to be a good thing. I just don't
know if all the other changes justify the mod.

It is certainly possible with only some thought. I can't see it costing much.

 

[ratio411]

The 331 stroker I am building should make between 420-460rwhp I've been told.

That sort of rear wheel horsepower means crazy high fwhp.
You must be building a very radical engine. Seeing your car
being a manual tranny, and using the standard frictional loss
factor of 15% through a manual drivetrain... That comes to
approx 542 fwhp. 1.64 hp per cube naturally aspirated...

To get those numbers from a 331, the driveability will likely
suffer greatly.

 

[Black Stampede]

 

[Stopsign32v]

That sort of rear wheel horsepower means crazy high fwhp.
You must be building a very radical engine. Seeing your car
being a manual tranny, and using the standard frictional loss
factor of 15% through a manual drivetrain... That comes to
approx 542 fwhp. 1.64 hp per cube naturally aspirated...

To get those numbers from a 331, the driveability will likely
suffer greatly.

That is what a good tuner is for. I've asked high and low for the best tuner within a couple states that knows how to tune the driveability part real well.

Oh and my H/C/I stock uncut piston 302 made 328rwhp/337rwtq and outran every bolt on LS1 I came across. Don't believe that a 302 cannot make power with the right parts...

 

[Stopsign32v]

 

[1slow95]

I just thought of another subject to stir up trouble!

Which ECM do you folks think is better for performance use?

You do realize that the 5.0, 351w, and LSx all have the same FO!
(Firing order)

That means that one could use the LSx ECM on a Ford engine, and
in theory convert it to distributorless ignition, among other things.

Of course I am not advocating this mod out and out. I am just throwing
that out for discussion to see if there is any practical benefit. To me,
the deletion of the distributor has to be a good thing. I just don't
know if all the other changes justify the mod.

It is certainly possible with only some thought. I can't see it costing much.

The AEM EMS has the ability to run a 5.0/5.8 with LS1 coil packs and a cam sensor in place of a distributor. That's something I've been contemplating doing after I get my AEM installed and tuned.

 

[ratio411]

my H/C/I stock uncut piston 302 made 328rwhp/337rwtq...

That is encouraging.
How radical was that setup?
Was that through a manual tranny?
What heads?

Sorry for all the questions...

 

[ratio411]

The AEM EMS has the ability to run a 5.0/5.8 with LS1 coil packs and a cam sensor in place of a distributor. That's something I've been contemplating doing after I get my AEM installed and tuned.

Dog gone it!
I forgot all about the CPS.
That would make the swap nearly impossible using the stock ECM.




Stopsign:
What the heck kind of upper is that???

 

[Black Stampede]

:Zip2:


Whats the story on Mr. Blackout in the background? Hopefully some 600hp monster?