the H or X debate

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by deftsound, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. deftsound

    deftsound Please ask me how much my supercharger cost

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    the power gains are gonna be about the same as far as an x or h pipe goes. X pipes give you more of a high pitch raspy sound like a nascar and h pipes give more of a deep rumble sound like a muscle car...

    Do NOT get 3' exhaust unless your planning on getting some sort of power adder such as a supercharger in the future. IT would be absolutely pointless and youd probably actually lose power due to having no backpressure.

    As far as a catback goes, if you want maximum power go with straight through mufflers such as magnaflow, dynomax, slp etc etc...

    LT headers are definately a great power adder but dont expect to be able to pass inspections with them.
     
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  2. timeless2

    timeless2 Vi Veri Veni Versum Vicus Vici
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    "Best" is subjective in this decision. It comes down to your personal preference and the catback you have on your vehicle for what sound you want. The performance gains between the two are rather insignificant.
     
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  3. helty

    helty some Ukrainian's enjoying a handjob via my credit

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    an X-pipe will typically give you more power than an H, but nothing significant. maybe 1-2hp. if you're one of those people who needs to squees every bit of power out of every part, then get an X. just remember that will have an effect on your exhaust note.

    X= nascar
    H=muscle car
     
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  4. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

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    Well here is the problem. A "mid pipe" is designed to do one thing, transfer pressure from one side of the exhaust to the other depending on what cylinders are firing. Its is well known that a crossover between the exhaust makes more power than just straight pipes with no cross over. Non midpipe vehicle POP alot because there is no pressure release and the exahust is pushing back and forth pressure wise depending on RPM what pistions are firing ect, so its not a smooth flow out. So midipes let that pressure transfer when its high on one side, to the other side that is at that time low.
    Now Hs let that pressure bleed great at low RPMs, but when you start getting up there (supposedly over 4500ish) in RPMs, that pressure simply doesnt have enough time to effectivly transfer the pressure...in short Hs are really not much better than staright pipes in the upper RPMs...especially 6500+ in the cobra.
    Now Xs (true) transfer the pressure INSTANTLY reguardless of RPMs, but that supper effecient transfer really reduces back pressure over the H at EVERY RPM, effectivly reducing lowerend torque (less back pressure means less lowend power), but boosting upper RPM power.
    If you notice, nascar usues ONLY true Xs...when they first were designed, one of the nascar guys got ahold of it and was beating everyone else that had Hs, then when he flipped the car everyone seen what he had and EVERYONE went with Xs. (back then I dont believe they were turning the 10K of today either).
    Xs are a better design all the way around, but the Hs flaw of having more back pressure actually helps in the lowerend HP/Torque.

    SOOO to answer your question, with your DOHC 4V....Dr Gas, VRS or any other TRUE X is the best bet for you.

    EDIT: Notice Helty said " X =s Nascar H=s Muscle car"

    And ill tell you why it is "muscle" besides the sound, and why the old muscle car guys dont like Xs and wouldnt use them on the street. The problem was (and they probably didnt even realize it) that their big motors would only turn about 5K. They just didnt turn enough to take advantage of the Xs, and the H gave them a more powerful car around town, strip, ect due to the back pressure. Car probably felt alot faster with it, and if I personally had a vehicle that turned 5K I would probably go H. It would make more power and torque through 95% of the RPM range.
     
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  5. GNN60GT500

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    Well, there are a few flaws with the argument....

    Most old muscle car guys do not use an X pipe because they do not understand how they work- in fact I am pretty suprised at the number of guys who dont really understand how exhaust works at all-

    Besides the efficient transfer, an X pipe when designed right will also basically create a vacuum on the opposite cylinder bank so that when the exhaust valve opens, the air is not just being pushed out, but pulled out as well-

    A poorly designed X pipe will only see top end gains while a properly designed X pipe will see gains in hp and tq through the entire RPM range-

    So, a properly designed X pipe will make MORE Hp and MORE torque then an H pipe-

    I am running an X on my big block car that does not spin much past 5000RPM, and I picked up both HP and Torque by going with an X pipe- through out the entire RPM range-



    Alot of hot rod guys also take off their exhaust when running down the track for better times- but a properly designed exhaust system will make more hp then open headers-

    however when they are running H pipes with chambered mufflers, it will definitely make more power to run open headers-


    At Magnaflow we make both H pipes and X pipes- so we know how they really stack up against each other-
     
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  6. hotmustang331

    hotmustang331 New Member

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    Cool, my statements were an in general refrence...and the gain of an X over an H through ALL the RPM range is possable depending on how the previous system flowed and your particular engine setup. But like I said the X flows better and are more effecient at every RPM, but its also true that in most cases, that lower pressure means less lowerend torque.(has to do with the cam profile from what I understand)
    BTW are magnaflows Xs a "true" X design? I thought they werent.:shrug:

    And dont count out those old hotrodders, they wernt dumb...they developed all those tricks that we have today (side gapping, indexing, PCV vaccume, ect). Its not TOO hard to figure out what a midpie does lol, but im sure most didnt know the specifics...but like I said, the Xs (especially back then...no true Xs that I know of) were not the best setup for them in most cases.

    Thanks for the input man:nice: .
     
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  7. 03ghoststang

    03ghoststang Well-Known Member

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    that is why i went with an X-pipe because it helps the motor out in scavenging and it has a real nice tone to it when mated to a good cat-back
     
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  8. GNN60GT500

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    The Magnaflow X is a true X design as well- In fact our patent on it is for the name Tru-X...lol

    We actually now have a few NASCAR teams using our X pipe as well-


    Anyways, a little bit of information for you, to agree with you-

    The person who designed our X pipe had his name associated with a few things you might know about-

    His name is Mike Jones (he is retired now)

    Jones is the J in J&E Pistons-

    He also has his name on the patent for the Holley Dominator-

    He also helped GM design some cylinder heads or something- so I definitely dont count out the old hot rodder guys- worked with a few cam companies-

    and he actually just came out of retirement and is the CEO for Diablo-

    Mike JOnes had forgotten more then I knew about cars- he was a really neat guy to listen to-

    he used to work for Ford setting up their motors for their factory backed drag cars in the late 60's

    just alot of the old hot rodders get stuck in their ways, they find something that works, and stick with it- not that there is anything wrong with it- but sometime when something new does come along they tend to be more skeptical- and a little less willing to try-

    This is just my experience though, I have spent alot of time making shop calls across the US, (I have probably been in a few thousand shops-

    Of course there are alot of them that embrace new technology as well-



    BTW- A sticky would be great- feel free to use as much info as you want from my posts-
     
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  9. timeless2

    timeless2 Vi Veri Veni Versum Vicus Vici
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    Here is the new thread and I'll link it in the tech sticky.
     
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  10. GNN60GT500

    Founding Member

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    http://www.magnaflow.com/05news/magazine/05carcraft.asp


    Here is an article from Car Craft where we made more rwhp on a Mustang then open headers-

    Also we dynoed the car with an H pipe- and we picked up 13rwhp and 33rwtq over an H pipe and chambered mufflers-

    thats right- 33rwtq-

    great article on how X pipes work-
     
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  11. ToplessStang

    ToplessStang Member

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    Can someone then give the pros or cons to the Prochamber :shrug: .
     
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  12. Bullitt0616

    Bullitt0616 New Member

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    Pros = unique sound, great power over traditional X.

    Cons = mine's not here yet :)
     
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  13. TrueBlue03

    TrueBlue03 New Member

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    Prochamber Pros:
    -Awesome Tone (with almost no rasp)
    -Growls deep, but still roars at higher rpms

    Cons:
    -Quieter than regular offroad H because of the chamber
    -Many complaints of chamber making tin/scratchy/rattling noise audible inside cabin
    -Many complaints of exhaust leaks

    And i dont know about the gains in comparrison to offroad H's and X's.
     
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  14. deftsound

    deftsound Please ask me how much my supercharger cost

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    Man thats cool! I would have thought that nascar teams would engineer their own parts, cool to know that the parts we use are actual parts that are used on nascars. Are you a representative of magnaflow?

    I went with an h pipe strictly because i like the muscle car sound over the nascar sound, its a well known fact though that x pipes produce more power.

    The prochamber isnt quite as loud as a regular offroad pipe but it produces a slightly different sound and from what ive heard more power. I personally care more about how my car sounds than a few extra horsepower and since i have dynomax mufflers (quiet) i decided it would sound better if i had those few extra decibels.

    Question: On my old 5.0 the dumbass who had the car before me had straight pipes, it literally didnt have a mid pipe, i dont know why he did this. The car always ran rich and i never knew why, could this have been one of hte factors involved in why it always ran like that?
     
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  15. menasci

    menasci Member

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    Would love to hear a Prochamber/Bassani combo clip!
     
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  16. wannabe2000GT

    wannabe2000GT New Member

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    is this gonna be the sticky thread?
     
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  17. timeless2

    timeless2 Vi Veri Veni Versum Vicus Vici
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  18. GNN60GT500

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    1. Yes, I am a Field Sales Manager for Magnaflow, I have worked here for about 5 years now-

    2. Yep- when it comes to sound all bets are off- I like the way the H pipe sounds too- I ended up going with the X on both of my cars because not very many people are running X s on classics so I wanted to be different-

    3. If it was running rich, probably the 02 sensors, when the 02 sensors start to go out, or get dirty, or start malfunctioning on a an OBD1 vehicle, the computer will get a false lean reading and will add more fuel-

    This is one of the biggest reasons that converters get ruined, as when the excess fuel gets into the converters, it will ignite, melting down the converter-

    :cheers:
     
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  19. JayC

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    Sorry but that's a typical "magazine" article. The 2.5" H/ chambered muffler set up was swapped for a 2.5"/3.5"/3" combo system. This is not comparing apples to apples.......but a nice attempt to stack the deck.


    Please read carefully..........

    " Sounds good, but would it work? To find out, we tested three exhaust system configurations on MagnaFlow's in-house Dynojet. For a baseline, we ran the car with open headers and saw 333 hp at 6,300 rpm and 304 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 at the rear wheels. Next, we ran a 2½-inch bolt-together system consisting of a BBK short off-road H-pipe designed to fit the company's full-length headers connected to a set of race-type 2½-inch welded mufflers with turndowns. Our Mustang's carbureted 302 didn't like this combo, as power fell to 323 hp at 6,300 rpm and 295 lb-ft of torque at 5,200. The increased backpressure also richened up the air/fuel mixture by about two carburetor jet sizes. Finally, we swapped on the stepped X-pipe setup and were impressed to see power levels equal to the open headers: 335 hp at 6,300 hp and 302 lb-ft at 5,200. That's a gain of 12 rear wheel horsepower, although it turns out we weren't really giving anything up or gaining anything extra from the open headers. So the car's happy, and our ears are even happier! "

    Notice there was no attempt to tune the car for each exhaust set-up...althought Magnaflow had the car for a week to try different combinations .:shrug:

    Look here......

    "We left the car at MagnaFlow for about a week, and when we came back we found that after some preliminary testing, the guys had built a really trick system.........."


    I'm not arguing the fact that X's may or may not be better , but the article is a bit weighted in favor of the Magnaflow stuff IMO:nono:



    Jay
     
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  20. GNN60GT500

    Founding Member

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    So if you are not posting to debate X pipe vs H pipe, then why post at all-
    :shrug:

    and whats wrong if I do post something about Magnaflow-

    Considering we build both X pipes and H pipes- I think we should have a pretty fair out look on the debate-

    If another company wants to discuss in this thread, go for it-

    I work for Magnaflow, the article was shot at Magnaflow, and the only products used in the test was Magnaflow- not to mention it is on the Magnaflow website-


    So yes it is biased towards Magnaflow stuff- lol

    I did not post this article to say anything bad against BBK-

    I know Brian and Ken Murphy (the founders and owners of BBK) very well and I can tell you that their products are of very high quality- and they will provide you with proven power gains as well-

    In fact I am using many many BBK parts on my cars-

    My point was not to compare Magnaflow to Brand X- My point was to show that a properly designed system using an X pipe and straight through mufflers could work as well if not better then open headers-

    I think you misunderstood my post- it had more to do with the fact that their are some older hot rodders that get set in their ways and they think the only way to make the most power is open headers-

    there are two discussions going on right now-

    X pipe vs H pipe and


    old hot rod guys and how they know their s**t really well but can sometimes get stuck in their ways-
     
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