Took my MII to the track today, what a disaster!!!

Discussion in '1974 - 1978 Mustang II Talk & Tech' started by Addicted_2_II, Jul 7, 2005.


  1. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Made it 3/4 way down the track and heard a funny noise from my engine but it was still running strong so I just finished the run! After I got slowed down it sounded like 20 gremlins under my hood with hammers beating on my heads! I look down and I have NO oil pressure ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

    What are my possibilities?
    - Bad Oil pump?
    - broke oil rod?
    - Clog?
    - God hates me?
    - ???????

    :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

    Anyone have suggestions?

    Chad
     
    #1
  2. 78pinto

    78pinto New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    i would say the pump driveshaft twisted off, your pump may have injested some nasty thing in your pan, it stuck inbetween the vanes in your pump and broke the shaft.
     
    #2
  3. itsaMustangtoo

    itsaMustangtoo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Carlisle,Pa
    I would say a broken oil rod also. Just pull the distributer and check it out. I had the same thing happen, a sliver ever so small of metal made its way through the screen and into the vanes of the pump and SNAP.
     
    #3
  4. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Pulled the Distributor and Oil Pump Shaft spins freely with almost no friction what so ever! :notnice:

    So it looks like I will have to pull the entire engine again unless anyone has a bright idea???

    Chad
     
    #4
  5. COBRAIIW

    COBRAIIW New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    CT
    Broken valve springs?
    OOPS! my bad, you said no oil presuure.
     
    #5
  6. 78pinto

    78pinto New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    it may have broken off at the pump, under the clip that holds it in place. I would pull the engine anyhow to check the bearings, the mains and rod bearings most likely will be toast if you were at the top end of the track at 5000+rpms with no oil pressure.
     
    #6
  7. Mstng2

    Mstng2 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    - - Zion - -
    Grab the oil pump drive shaft with a pair of needle nose pliars and see if it pulls out. If it does it probably looks like a pretzel on the bottom end. Sounds like a motor lift for sure, you'll need to replace the oil pump and shaft at a bare minimum. You may have gotten lucky, I have seen similar breakdown restart and run good. (of course there is major wear on the bearings but not so bad it requires a rebuild) Heres what I would do.
    0) compression test - if a piston broke its done anyway...
    1) lift engine (not pull it all the way) and drop the oil pan.
    2) pull oil pump and pump shaft
    3) pull 2 bearings 1 rod, and rear main, inspect. If not to bad put them back in.
    4) Flush flush and reflush all engine oil passages, and oil pan with an engine flush from Autozone or whoever.
    5) Replace oil pump, (dont forget to prime the new pump) shaft, pan.
    6) lower engine back down. (dont bolt it all in yet)
    7) prime engine, (spin oil pump with drill til pressure builds)
    8) reset distributor, fire it up, check oil pressure.
    9) count blessings, have a root beer, go back to track. :)
     
    #7
  8. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    First off Mstng2, thank you for the list! A few questions?

    RE1. Should I turn the engine over for Compression tests with no oil pressure?
    RE2. Are you sure you can get the oil pan out without lifting the engine completely out in my MII?

    Chad
     
    #8
  9. Blue Thunder

    Blue Thunder Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Upstate New York.
    That sucks, dude.
    Next time, run a forged heavy duty pump shaft, because the stock pump shaft is the weak link in the 302.

    Also, if that's just a temporary grenade motor throw a new shaft in it and see if it runs OK. If you have some money invested in it and don't want to risk it coming apart at some future time, then I'd remove the motor and put it on the engine stand for some checking/rebuilding.
    A friend of mine was racing around town in a stock 302 Capri with high miles on it, and it seized the oil pump and twisted off the pump shaft. So he drives the car for like 2 days rattling and clanking away before installing a new pump and shaft. The motor quieted right down and sounded fine afterwards, but I certainly wouldnt want it. heh.

    P.S. Rule of thumb: if the oil pump shaft looks like a barber shop pole, and is about half as long as it's supposed to be, it might be time to replace it. haha
     
    #9
  10. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Yea wish I would have known that about 8 weeks ago when it was apart :)

    Thanks for the suggestions!

    Chad
     
    #10
  11. Dano78

    Dano78 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1999
    Messages:
    2,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Alot of us are use to just figuring out what was broke and fix it. But so often we forget to figure out why it broke in the first place. I run high volume oil pumps with stock distrib. gear and ARP driverod and have yet to have problems all the way up to 7500 Rpms in some cases. Depending on how tight the engine is when bluseprinted, dictates the weight of oil I'll use. Most all the fresh rebuilds i do, they get started off with 10W30 to reduce excess pressure and stress on the oiling system. Then if needed I can switch to a thicker weight.

    What weight of oil were you using?
     
    #11
  12. Mustangj

    Mustangj Founding Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Guelph, Ontario, Canada
    Oil pump rod and carmic retrobution from Jebus :D

    The first time I rebuilt the 302 was in high school and I was on a super tight budget. I used the stock oil pump drive. I had no oil pressure gauge at the time. The shaft did the twizzler and broke off. The engine actually seized. I filled the cylinders with diesel and let it sit for a week. I flushed the oil, got it to crank over by hand. I bought a new stock oil pump drive, a new pump and an oil pressure gauge! The engine was fine and lived another couple of summers before the pump drive twizzlered-up again. This time it wipped out the bearings. I asked some dudes at the track about the problem and they sugested the new SVO oil pump drive (now I am dating myself). The pump shaft and the 302 are 15 years old now and they are still fine! The engine has been rebuilt a number of times since and is now 030 over. I have a 302 H.O on the stand waiting to replace it. The end of an era :(

    SVO, I mean Ford Motorsport, that is Ford racing still sells the oil pump drive :D
     
    #12
  13. Blue Thunder

    Blue Thunder Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Upstate New York.
    I have one of those SVO pump shafts in my motor, and it's survived 8500 RPM.
     
    #13
  14. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    10W30 I debated but decided this was the best to start with!

    Chad
     
    #14
  15. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    So far this is what I have on my Rebuild list...

    - FMS-M-6600-D2 HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP $54.95 $54.95

    - FMS-M-6605-A302 OIL PUMP SHAFT HD $18.88 $18.88

    - FPP-1809 Fel-Pro Performance Oil Pan Gaskets $11.88 $11.88

    Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :hail2:


    I wouldn't mind changing the motor mounts while im in there again... Does anyone have any leads on some reasonably priced ones? :nice:

    Chad
     
    #15
  16. Mstng2

    Mstng2 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    - - Zion - -
    1) put a few squirts of oil down each of the cylinders before you turn it over for the compression test. (you need the plugs out anyway)

    2) Yes, but you need to disconnect the trans mount and driveshaft so the engine will tilt. be prepared for a big oil/trans dump from the rear of the tranny when you tilt it.

    Good luck let us know how it turns out.
     
    #16
  17. Dano78

    Dano78 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1999
    Messages:
    2,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Does anybody know what brands FMS is using? On a normal basis I run Melling Pil pumps and ARP's oil pump drive rod, cause it's a hardened meaty sucker.

    When pulling the oil pan, you may not need to pull the driveshaft and trans mount if you just drop the steering rack down and out of the way. I dropped the pan in a '77 I had by just dropping the rack and lifting the motor up at much as it'd allow.

    And really, if you're gonna pull the driveline and the trans mount along with the motor mounts, you're probably an 1/2 hour tops from pullin the whole dang engine/trans assembly. :shrug:
     
    #17
  18. Addicted_2_II

    Addicted_2_II New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Finished the compression tests and it does not look good!

    The numbers were all over the place...

    Cyl test1 test2 test3
    1 152 153 153
    2 160 160 159
    3 175 177 175
    4 155 155 156
    5 153 156 151
    6 159 157 158
    7 177 178 179
    8 152 152 151

    I did not think they could be right so I tested 3 times.... :damnit: :damnit:

    From 151 to 179 that is not good!

    Is there anything else I can test before I have to rip it apart??? :(

    I started off with a $19 gage and found it was worth just that! So I went and got a good one from a speed shop. The dial was huge compared to the $19 so I am pretty sure the numbers are accurate!

    Anyone have some magic additive that will fix everything? :shrug:
    Chad
     
    #18
  19. Dano78

    Dano78 Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1999
    Messages:
    2,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Yeah those number are a bit erratic. You're really only allowed about 20% deviation between the highest and lowest cylinder. Wow... compression as high as 179! That's gotta be at least a 10:1 compression engine. Most 8-8.5:1 engines are around 150psi when new.
     
    #19
  20. COBRA 7

    COBRA 7 Founding Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2000
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Bangor, Maine

    Why a hi volume oil pump? The oil passages are only so big and can only pass so much oil. The oil filter is a restriction and can flow only so much oil. What about sucking all the oil out of the oil pan at hi rpm?


    DANO 78 has it right..... standard Melling oil pump and ARP pump rod.

    That's what I run with 10w40. I have 50-60 p.s.i. oil pressure all the time. At idle and at 6 grand. :flag:
     
    #20

Share This Page