Upgrade existing engine or crate motor?

Orange04BOSS

New Member
Apr 21, 2004
108
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Denton, Texas
Right now I have a 2004 gt sohc stock engine. I wanted to go with vt stage 2 cams and stage 2 heads, long tubes, gears, x cal2, supercharger. Spoke to a couple of people and they said that I should just buy a crate motor, 331 stroker or something like that. What are yall's opinions. If i go crate motor then for now i'll just buy stuff for handeling and appearance. my goal is to make about 500-600 to the rear. to get that which crate motor. I'm leaning more towards the crate motor, first because i have a new motor and second because everything would be forged and custom. thanks in advance for the help.
 
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you will need to do so anyhow. you have zero chance on getting 600 without a blower or nitrous. best streetable NA combo has been a fully built 5.4L 4V. Bill fischer might drop in and give some insight... however, you are looking at around 13k+ to get to around 520... and thats assuming you BEAT the current streetable 5.4 from boss 330. NA its going to take a ton of cash, and you settling with 500ish or spraying for the difference.

now that my NA disclaimer is out of the way... i suppose the next best is asking what you want to do with it... drag, road course, street monster... do you want to do like 400 na then spray the rest? All block? or use a blower to get there. either way its going to cost.

you will at minimum HAVE to get a new shortblock with better internals. and with doing that you might as well go ahead and get fully ported heads at the same time. then decide if you want to spray to get your goal, blower (then centrifugal or posi), or turbo, or the final one and sacrafice power to have an all block power plant.

i can assist with a fair amount, but after a while my knowledge runs dry... i'm a bit more into suspension then engines (till i finish my suspension), but have worked with a lot and there are people here that have done it all.

ask, why do you really want 500-600HP? showoff? bragging rights? dragging it? nice number for street power? more power for a road course? or just taking a number you think might be cool? answer this and we can help point you down the road.

Torinalth
 
I did not realize it would cost so much to reach 500 hp. My reason for asking this question was because i wanted to get cams and heads and make my car alittle fast and sound real mean. I don't go to the track, I dont street race, i dont race at all. If someone on the highway wants to pull up next to me and run, i might but i have never so far. The only reason for the cams and heads and long tubes was for the sound. then i was told that all that stuff plus install i could get a crate motor and make close to the same power maybe more for about the same price plus i could have a new engine with no miles. i think i got greedy with 500hp. If i stay with my stock engine but add the cams and stuff i wanna dry shot of nos. if i go with crate i still want nitrous but maybe a blower too, since that motor could handle it all. I did not realize it would cost me so much for all this. another person from dfwstangs said that she is getting a new shortblock and is getting it with twin turbos and will be selling her vortech/cooler soon. should i buy it and put it on the car or wait. again my only reason for the mods is for the sound. i love the way the car sounds with the cams. I definately want stage 2 cams from vt though so I have been told that I need springs and a whole bunch of other things. i am new to modifying mustangs. All the mustangs i have owned have always been stock. My last mustang was a 93 cobra, so this new engine is throwing me off alittle and everything is so much more expensive. thanks for the help. maybe now you can see where i wanna get to. thanks. ps, who is bill fischer? i dont get on here much.

Torinalth said:
you will need to do so anyhow. you have zero chance on getting 600 without a blower or nitrous. best streetable NA combo has been a fully built 5.4L 4V. Bill fischer might drop in and give some insight... however, you are looking at around 13k+ to get to around 520... and thats assuming you BEAT the current streetable 5.4 from boss 330. NA its going to take a ton of cash, and you settling with 500ish or spraying for the difference.

now that my NA disclaimer is out of the way... i suppose the next best is asking what you want to do with it... drag, road course, street monster... do you want to do like 400 na then spray the rest? All block? or use a blower to get there. either way its going to cost.

you will at minimum HAVE to get a new shortblock with better internals. and with doing that you might as well go ahead and get fully ported heads at the same time. then decide if you want to spray to get your goal, blower (then centrifugal or posi), or turbo, or the final one and sacrafice power to have an all block power plant.

i can assist with a fair amount, but after a while my knowledge runs dry... i'm a bit more into suspension then engines (till i finish my suspension), but have worked with a lot and there are people here that have done it all.

ask, why do you really want 500-600HP? showoff? bragging rights? dragging it? nice number for street power? more power for a road course? or just taking a number you think might be cool? answer this and we can help point you down the road.

Torinalth
 
In your sig it says:

Coming Attractions
-4.10 Gears
-SLP Long Tube Headers
-Stage II Cam

Instead I would suggest
-4.10 gears
-maximum motorsports box kit (yer choice)
-catback
-o/r H

Those long tubes and cams are expensive and the car is weakest in the suspension area so upgrade that. You will end up spending 5k instead of 10 if you do the list I suggested.

And if you are a self installer, that MM box kit will give you some definite challenges :nice:
 
aye, most of the suspension gear is cake for a weekend wrench, its when you look into thinks like k members, panhard rods, and trilinks that really make you question your abilities :)

mcteague is not far off on suggestions. it really would help to work on the suspension... not necessarily go full bore (as i have resigned myself to do), but gear to your needs. honestly, what i have now is prolly what you'd like.. it handles great... i just want more :)

to make some solid power the price goes up however i think i might have scared you a bit :) that may be a good thing. honestly if you shot for around 400 to the ground then bump to somewhere around 450 or so with supporting mods i think you would be more then happy and not have to replace the engine (that is, as long as the tune is very solid).

i gave up on the cobra engine (not enough power), gave up on the 5.4 4v (way too expensive), and am leaning twards getting a kenne bell supercharger, ported heads, and mild blower cams, then reworking all the coolant plumbing to fight off heat soak. this will net me well over 450 when i am done and on the stock block (i will be DETUNING my engine to keep it around 420 or less), and run it fairly safe till i have the money to go ahead and ramp up to 15 lbs of boost, blow a rod, and drop in a shortblock and never have a problem again.

i fell in love with all motor power and thats why i was looking into both cobra and 5.4 4v motors (400-500 all motor) but the costs were just too steep. with a kenne bell i can get ~380 with everything stock, get my coolant parts so i have no issues with it being a daily driver, then pop on ported heads and mild cams to get a lot more power (if i see fit). the best part of the kenne bell (and all positive displacement blowers) is that the feel mimics that of a big power motor. you have the power all the time.. just push the pedal further to get your desired result.

the vortech you mentioned is another good way to get some nice power, however it behaves differntly. a centrifugal acts like a turbo, meaning you get more power the more you climb in RPM. for a drag car this can be ideal, slightly lower power on a launch to keep traction, then once traction is firmly handled you get more power. i have ridden in two, and though the power is nice i kinda felt like i was in a *** car... just didnt feel right to me. many people swear by vortech, paxton, and procharger... all are good companies with many many happy people putting down 350-800 hp with them.

one thing to note, i am very very picky with my car, which is why i dont think i will ever be 100% happy with my suspension, and prolly never completely happy with my power.. but i must sacrafice to keep from going broke/insane.

you could easily get that blower kit for around 2500 or less because its used, and with the mods/order mcteague suggested you would be quite happy, especially if you are not as picky as i am (most people aren't).

just something to think on.

Torinalth
 
i definately want to beef up the suspension but i am not the person to install those parts. i am new to these cars and have no idea what to do. would not mind helping someone do it though. i would like to learn how to do stuff to my car the right way. i am very picky when it comes to my car. my car is my pride and joy. if i wanted a setup like yours torinalth, then what do i need. is there a place where i could get a kit like yours or do you have a list of stuff that you did to your car. you said that eventually you would blow a rod and then get a shortblock and everything would be fine. should i just go ahead and buy a shortblock now and then not ever worry about anything breaking. who do you suggest letting work on the car. i heard some good things about hpp and lonestar performance. thanks for the help.

Torinalth said:
aye, most of the suspension gear is cake for a weekend wrench, its when you look into thinks like k members, panhard rods, and trilinks that really make you question your abilities :)

mcteague is not far off on suggestions. it really would help to work on the suspension... not necessarily go full bore (as i have resigned myself to do), but gear to your needs. honestly, what i have now is prolly what you'd like.. it handles great... i just want more :)

to make some solid power the price goes up however i think i might have scared you a bit :) that may be a good thing. honestly if you shot for around 400 to the ground then bump to somewhere around 450 or so with supporting mods i think you would be more then happy and not have to replace the engine (that is, as long as the tune is very solid).

i gave up on the cobra engine (not enough power), gave up on the 5.4 4v (way too expensive), and am leaning twards getting a kenne bell supercharger, ported heads, and mild blower cams, then reworking all the coolant plumbing to fight off heat soak. this will net me well over 450 when i am done and on the stock block (i will be DETUNING my engine to keep it around 420 or less), and run it fairly safe till i have the money to go ahead and ramp up to 15 lbs of boost, blow a rod, and drop in a shortblock and never have a problem again.

i fell in love with all motor power and thats why i was looking into both cobra and 5.4 4v motors (400-500 all motor) but the costs were just too steep. with a kenne bell i can get ~380 with everything stock, get my coolant parts so i have no issues with it being a daily driver, then pop on ported heads and mild cams to get a lot more power (if i see fit). the best part of the kenne bell (and all positive displacement blowers) is that the feel mimics that of a big power motor. you have the power all the time.. just push the pedal further to get your desired result.

the vortech you mentioned is another good way to get some nice power, however it behaves differntly. a centrifugal acts like a turbo, meaning you get more power the more you climb in RPM. for a drag car this can be ideal, slightly lower power on a launch to keep traction, then once traction is firmly handled you get more power. i have ridden in two, and though the power is nice i kinda felt like i was in a *** car... just didnt feel right to me. many people swear by vortech, paxton, and procharger... all are good companies with many many happy people putting down 350-800 hp with them.

one thing to note, i am very very picky with my car, which is why i dont think i will ever be 100% happy with my suspension, and prolly never completely happy with my power.. but i must sacrafice to keep from going broke/insane.

you could easily get that blower kit for around 2500 or less because its used, and with the mods/order mcteague suggested you would be quite happy, especially if you are not as picky as i am (most people aren't).

just something to think on.

Torinalth
 
cant help with local people... only know the national guys... MPH in atlanta, MMR... whereever they are, steeda, and some place in NJ. aside from them i really dont know about ones i would trust, especially in your area, i'd search around for a local mustang club and see what they think.

when i am talking about blowing a rod i meant doing it on purpose. i was going to raise the boost too high, increase the timing too much, lean it slightly, and then do a few drag runs till my rods give out. i have 130k on the motor now and by the time i am ready for my shortblock i will have around 200k on the clock (maybe another year).. so no, there is no need for getting a shortblock immediatly... get the blower first and the shortblock as money allows, but dont forget about it.

suspension... well... not really a kit for it, i pieced mine together. HR race springs, Bilstein shocks and struts, steeda front and rear swaybars, swaybar endlinks, and LCAs. this will do for a LOT of people. flat cornering, good grip, and really easy to install by your self.

dont sell yourself short on installing things. as long as you have a full socket set, a wrench set, some plyers, and a couple C clamps, you can do just about every install for the mustang except ones that require welding, or bulling the engine/dropping the trans. oh, and how do you think you will learn if you dont do it? just dont be afraid... block off and entire day for the work (nomatter what you are installing) and take it easy... we are always here for guidance.

Torinalth
 
How did this go from a power discussion to a suspension thread?

Anyhow so your just wanting the power. 500-600hp is ALOT if 1. you can drive it 2. if you can plant it.

If I was in your shoes. Forget about N/A if you want that high a #. But if n/a is your route lower your desired power level 300+ - 400ish is much more easy to obtain and will make for a car if you can drive it take out 90+% of the cars you run into.
Now let's talk power adders.
nitrous is good, safe, and cheap provided you use your head with it. But the bottle does run dry. ecplising 400+ rwhp is easy on stock bottom end, heads and cams.
Blower - Ok the whole centri v posi thing you need to decide what you want and how you want the power. For a FUN street car I'd go KB however if the # you mention earlier is where you want to be I'd go for the 2.2. Other ones to think about novi 2000 it will work well at a reduced boost level but will also work well once you turn the boost up on a built bottom end. Of course a screaming deal on any would be hard to pass up.
Turbo - Tons of power and a BIG pricetag IMO unless your doing a strong bottomend at the same time cost is too high.

Ok suspension only you can answer what kind of suspension you want and need.

But here's what I'd suggest if your really going to built the monster you have described.
1. gears - when you do the gears go ahead and do at least some 31 spline axles and diff. that way your only paying to have the rearend torn down once. I say this because if susepsion is too much as you implied you really shouldn't mess with setting a rear end up.
2. exhaust - If you don't have inspections to worry about go ahead and do a full exhaust. Headers (lt. mids, or shorties it's your call). OR mid pipe , and a good catback.
3a. Heads/cams - Ok when your at this stage you need to decide are you going with a power adder and if so which one if so you match your heads / cams to the power adder.
3b. Power adder - I'd suggest saving and doing at same time or at least laying the proper ground work. After all you could just slap a blower on and be done and not do heads and cams.
3c. TUNE - GET A TUNE ASAP.
4. suspension - research and go with a setup you like for what you want to do. Believe it or not a few simple things will allow you to keep up with most in the corners. ie sfc, springs, and been able to drive the car.

5. it never ends odds are you will never be at a point and go yes it's done I'll never do anything else to it. Have fun be careful and enjoy the ride.
 
Get a DSS promod shortblock....about 3000....patriot stage 3 heads with their cams.....about 1700 and headders about 500.......buy a t trim from vortec and a good custom dyno tun and 500 here you come! With upgraded injectors and maf with the kit 600 is possible.......it will run you about 10 grand but if you have the ability to install yourself....which I reccomend .....saves alot of money....lol You could have a 500-600 hp street car with about 13 lbs of boost!

"ED"
 
IS THERE A GOOD BOOK I CAN BUY TO SHOW ME HOW TO INSTALL STUFF. I REALLY LIKE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT GUYS FABRICATE LIKE SPEAKER BOXES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. I SAW THIS GUY MAKE A SPEAKER KICK BOX NEAR WHERE HIS FEET ARE. HE SAID THAT HE MADE IT BY HIMSELF. ARE THERE BOOKS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE THINGS LIKE THIS. I DEFINATELY NEED A BOOK ON HOW TO INSTALL STUFF, A BOOK WITH PICTURES, LOL, AND STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS. ANOTHER THING, I DONT HAVE A FULL SET OF TOOLS. I DO HAVE A WRENCH OR TWO AND A COUPLE OF PLIERS BUT THAT IS IT. THANKS FOR THE HELP. BY THE WAY, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK IT WOULD COST DO INSTALL THE CAMS AND HEADS THAT I WANT WITH THE LONG TUBE HEADERS. IF I DO BUY THE KENNY BELL SUPERCHARGER HOW MUCH WILL THAT COST TO INSTALL. THANKS.

Torinalth said:
cant help with local people... only know the national guys... MPH in atlanta, MMR... whereever they are, steeda, and some place in NJ. aside from them i really dont know about ones i would trust, especially in your area, i'd search around for a local mustang club and see what they think.

when i am talking about blowing a rod i meant doing it on purpose. i was going to raise the boost too high, increase the timing too much, lean it slightly, and then do a few drag runs till my rods give out. i have 130k on the motor now and by the time i am ready for my shortblock i will have around 200k on the clock (maybe another year).. so no, there is no need for getting a shortblock immediatly... get the blower first and the shortblock as money allows, but dont forget about it.

suspension... well... not really a kit for it, i pieced mine together. HR race springs, Bilstein shocks and struts, steeda front and rear swaybars, swaybar endlinks, and LCAs. this will do for a LOT of people. flat cornering, good grip, and really easy to install by your self.

dont sell yourself short on installing things. as long as you have a full socket set, a wrench set, some plyers, and a couple C clamps, you can do just about every install for the mustang except ones that require welding, or bulling the engine/dropping the trans. oh, and how do you think you will learn if you dont do it? just dont be afraid... block off and entire day for the work (nomatter what you are installing) and take it easy... we are always here for guidance.

Torinalth
 
my .02 is be smart with your money. I personally think you are setting your goals a bit high unless you have 12k burning a hole in your pocket.

you only need cams if you want to sound lopy. now if you want 500hp your tranny and rear end are going to die as well.

unless you are made of money I would back down your goal a bit and get the KB 9psi kit and settle for about 400hp at the wheels and run low 12's. going to set you back $4800.

once you go much over that you have to about rebuild the car or you just are going to break stuff or have no traction so you will just have a 12sec 600hp car.

be smart with you mods and money. KB 9psi and built rear and traction will get you 11sec passes.

spray is even cheaper but I like having my power on tap at all times on a street car. for a track car spray is great.
 
Turn your caps lock off.
Ok yes there are step by step books out there. But pick a topic and get the book for the topic. I know there was even a video series that was step by step on audio installs.
If your not doing the installs I suggest talking with others in your area and find a good shop with GREAT customer service. Cost varies too much to give a price on things. Good luck.
 
a fairly solid guide is the haynes manual. pics and step by steps.. complete tear down of the car.

and boowfo - i suggest you read the rest of the thread. most of what you said has already been covered... including the part where you questioned how it got to a suspension thread.

Torinalth