Vac advance, ported or manifold?

Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by Cdaniel, Aug 20, 2004.


  1. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    Max, I'm going to back off of this one. It's all yours. Any future retaliation will be forwarded to 2bav8. Good Day.
     
    #101
  2. Max Power

    Max Power New Member

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    LOL.. nothing to back off from. We're all good. Just having fun at this point.

    Who is 2bav8? Need any help...lol?

    ;)
     
    #102
  3. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    2bav is our moderator.
     
    #103
  4. Max Power

    Max Power New Member

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  5. 65SOHC

    65SOHC New Member

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    The true story on all this

    Centifugal advance is strictly related to engine speed. Vacuum advance is
    related to engine load. Under light load, ie. low throttle angle conditions,
    cylinder pressure is relatively low and the less dense air/fuel mixture
    tends to burn slowly. Therefore additional ignition timing is necessary to
    burn all the mixture, hence vacuum advance. On the other hand, at wide
    throttle openings engine load is high, manifold vacuum is near zero because
    the engine is no longer sucking past partially closed butterflies, cylinder
    filling and pressure are greater, and the denser mixture burns faster. The
    vacuum seen by the vacuum advance diaphragm is not enough to overcome the
    spring which opposes the vacuum signal, so no vacuum advance occurs. The
    issue of ported vs. manifold vacuum is very simple. The main reason for using ported vacuum
    rather than manifold vacuum is to reduce hydrocarbon emissions at idle. If
    you have an extra 10-15 degrees of advance at idle you'll gain nothing in
    performance but will double or triple your HC emissions. Another issue is
    idle quality. If you have a lumpy cam, vacuum at idle tends to be unstable,
    resulting in a constantly fluctuating vacuum signal which would cause
    erratic vacuum advance activity. A third reason to use ported vacuum is idle
    speed. If you increase timing at idle by 15 degrees, idle speed is going to
    increase by several hundred rpm. If you try to compensate by turning down
    the idle speed screw on the carb you may close the throttle blades too much
    and disturb the relationship between the blades and the idle transfer slot
    which will result in an off idle stumble. As far as ported vs. manifold at
    WOT, there's no difference. Neither produces enough vacuum to actuate vacuum advance. Having said that, it does make a difference which ported source you're using because they are not all the same. The port that should be used for vacuum advance is at the base of the carb, just above the throttle. This location sees manifold vacuum as soon as the throttle is opened. Ported sources higher up near the venturis may sense airflow/velocity rather than vacuum and produce a constantly increasing signal as rpm rise.
     
    #105
  6. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    Sorry, another 10-15 degrees at idle and the car wouldn't run. I think all has been said on this topic.
     
    #106
  7. 6stang8

    6stang8 New Member

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    And all cars have the same idle speed stock and modified? I don't think so.

    My 302 calls for 6 degrees of timing stock. I can move the timing up to 16 degrees and more and it will still idle. It might ping under load, but the car will still run......
     
    #107
  8. 351LX

    Founding Member

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    I saw this on another site and it is good reading for anyone who wants to know more.


    This article was originally posted at Camaros.net by JohnZ, a former GM engineer.

    As many of you are aware, timing and vacuum advance is one of my favorite subjects, as I was involved in the development of some of those systems in my GM days and I understand it. Many people don't, as there has been very little written about it anywhere that makes sense, and as a result, a lot of folks are under the misunderstanding that vacuum advance somehow compromises performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I finally sat down the other day and wrote up a primer on the subject, with the objective of helping more folks to understand vacuum advance and how it works together with initial timing and centrifugal advance to optimize all-around operation and performance. I have this as a Word document if anyone wants it sent to them - I've cut-and-pasted it here; it's long, but hopefully it's also informative.

    TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

    The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

    The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

    At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

    When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

    The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

    Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

    If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

    What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

    Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

    For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
     
    #108
  9. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    I meant run WELL!!!
     
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  10. Max Power

    Max Power New Member

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    I want to say something, but I don't want to get turned into the moderator.
     
    #110
  11. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    You must be one very bored individual. Why not get a life? :shrug:
     
    #111
  12. 67coupe351w

    67coupe351w New Member

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    :nonono:

    Ozsum2 -- I dont know enough about the essentials of engine vaccum to add to the fight but I gotta say you are one arrogant and ignorant person.

    These guys actualy RAN TESTS and are telling you the data they collected. If you werent arrogant and ignorant you would probably have ran the tests yourself to either confirm or disprove the data that these other 2 individuals have collected. This is how professionals gain a basis for agreeing or disagreeing with a given statement. Years with stangers in the know doesnt make a person know everythign there is to know.

    How come Hondas make so much power out of their tiny engines? Years of research and application of their research and not listening to some old bag telling them the results of their tests are wrong...
     
    #112
  13. Ozsum2

    Ozsum2 New Member

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    For being an ignorant person,( one who admitedly doesn't know) you sure are opinionated about a person whom you don't know. It's pricks like you that has gotten me to play shepard and get the flock outta here. :notnice:
     
    #113
  14. 67coupe351w

    67coupe351w New Member

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    Ozsum2 -- My being ignorant on the subject of engine vaccum and how we want it to relate to our distributers does not change the fact that you arrogantly dismissed Max Power's and 351LX's actual test data...whos the "prick"? :rlaugh:
     
    #114
  15. JB66

    JB66 New Member

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    From "Pinto Performance" published 1971 by Ford Motor Company...
    "We'll start with the ignition system.The distributor used on the Pinto has two vacuum diaphragms. The outside diaphragm is used for the normal ignition advance. The inside diaphragm is used during periods of idle to retard the ignition to control emissions. The retard diaphragm must be connected to the intake manifold vacuum as shown. The advance diaphragm must be connected to the carburetor vacuum." If you want anymore info, see the attached files from the Ford Service Handbook, pages 1 & 2.
     

    Attached Files:

    #115
  16. Hack

    Hack Active Member

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    Don't let the door hit you... :D
     
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    Chongus Banned

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