Very New And Would Like All The Help And Input I Can Get

Discussion in '1996 - 2004 SN95 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by byuind, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    Ladies and gents,

    Would like to ask for some assistance.

    Disclaimer: I know very little about the 4.6 platform (i come from a different background when it comes to engines which I will not mention here :p, and I spend the majority of my time working on firearms, so time spent over the last few years has been regretfully small.)


    I am here for advice and planning. I have made a deal with the devil (aka wonderful wife) to allow me to buy and build a 99-04 GT and build it into something worth showing off. I want to do it right, because its the only way I know how to do something. Hence why I'm here. I welcome all input and I am very prepared to take my lumps when I ask a dumb question or my ignorance shows.

    You all know more than me so over the next six months while I put the money away for the first step (buying a car in good shape body wise since I live in the North East) I want to road map how I wish to get where I want to be.

    Here are my 4 givens at this point.

    I will be buying a manual convertible (part of the deal with my wife)

    It will have to be forced induction (prefer supercharger / procharger)

    I will be looking to put 25k into it over the next 2-3 years (including buying the vehicle base, and engine/ drive train components.)

    I would like to make a paltry 500 to the rear wheels.


    Since it is the start of a process, I would like to know what you guys would do if you have 20k to build the powerplant. Where would you start? Stroker? Overbore? etc.

    Thanks all in advance for any direction you will give me.
     
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  2. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry?
    SN Certified Technician Mod Dude

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    In all honesty, Coyote swap will give you the most bang for your buck... You start with a 420 hp engine and the sky is the limit from there. The 5.0 coyote is still in the modular family and will nicely fit in any 99-04 that you can find. We have been recently sourcing the 5.0's out of wrecked F150's (there are very minor engine differences, such as the intake manifold and intake camshaft) for around 2,500-3,00$ depending on the milage. Ford Racing makes the appropriate computer and supporting parts to finish the swap. This coupled with a T56 would make for an awesome powerplant and should fit nicely into your budget. If you decide from there to add forced induction your budget will be a little more strained but it is very doable! I personally am partial to the Vortech centrifugal, but no mater how you skin it, a boosted coyote swap will be an animal to drive, can make 600rwhp rather easily and will certainly turn some heads!

    Don't be wary of asking questions, we all will do our best to get you going!
     
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  3. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    Thanks very much! Ok so to start with a couple questions.

    Coyote Swap: Is there any machining done to that motor or is it just refitted with forged internals? That makes the process a little less painless if no machining because I can build that myself. (aside from maybe a quick cylinder clean up )

    How does this sort of swap affect your bolt on options? is there a good supply of componets available for this sort of application?

    Also is the car driveable with this swap? If i want to take her out and just screw around on the street will I be stalling out left and right?

    Thanks again!
     
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  4. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry?
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    There is no machining what so ever required and you won't even have to remove as much as a valve cover. The coyote 5.0 has forged internals from the factory and really stands up well to boost or nitrous. Plenty of guys are making in excess of 600hp with the stock 5.0 engines and have no problems at all. As far as tuning goes, Ford Racing makes a harness/computer kit. It is loaded with a calibration that will run this engine as if it was in a brand new 5.0 mustang. All of the tuning headaches are taken off of your plate and it will be reliable enough to drive cross country if you so desire. As far as bolt on parts go, there is no shortage here either. There is a huge coyote market with many manufactures building supporting aftermarket parts. The swap is super straight forward beings that it is from the same modular family.

    If you go with the coyote swap, I would like to see a Vortech blower kit and Boss 302 Intake manifold on a motor that you can source with low mileage from the junk yard. With the blower kit, you will need to have some custom tuning done but that should be the only thing that you won't be able to do yourself. There isn't any real hard fabrication involved and it is a very straight forward swap.
     
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  5. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    wow... this is news to me. This is the same 5.0 that is in the F150, and it comes with forged internals?

    So please bear with me, I have a few more questions about it.

    1.) is this motor readily available? If you get one from a junk yard, I would assume you would want to rebuild? (at least new rings, etc)

    2.) motor mounts... is there modification there or does it usually drop right in.

    3.) you mentioned the boss manifold. Aren't those composite? Are there metal options that might be better or no?>

    thanks so much man, i really appreciate it
     
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  6. stangr5oh

    stangr5oh Active Member

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    The coyote is the same in the new Mustangs. Here is a link to a new coyote motor and components. I use this company alot in the past and now on my 99 GT.

    http://www.americanmuscle.com/coyote-engine-swap.html
     
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  7. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    Ok so I'm a little confused.

    When I look into the motor online, it shows that there is a variant that is available in the F150. is this motor something that is usable. Wikipedia calls it the "torque version." Im guessing this is easier to get than the motor that is already in the newer mustangs.
     
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  8. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry?
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    To answer your above questions:

    I would not rebuild a low mileage motor pulled from a yard. We recently received one with only 13,000 miles on it and only paid 3,000$

    The motor mounts should swap over. There should be no fitment issues getting the 5.0 in a 99-04. You will need new headers and some accessories but that should cover the hard parts

    The boss intake is composite, all of the factory ones and aftermarket ones are for that matter... If you had to have an aluminum one you would need a sheet metal intake and that from MMR is 1500$+. It is not needed at all as the composite intake manifolds are more than enough for 99% of applications.

    When you compare F150 5.0 to Mustang 5.0 there are very few differences. The biggest being the intake manifold and the intake cam shafts, the compression of the truck motor is down .5 points to 10.5:1. This accounts for the F150 making slightly more torque and slightly less HP. Either way, this is a very viable and cost effective option.
     
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  9. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    OK I see f150 5.0 motors on ebay with 10k miles for about 3000 shipped. Something like this is obviously appealling because it saves a whole ton of money right off the bat. I guess my next question would be:

    I buy one of these and probably another transmission with the money i save against a long block, and then what do I start with? I would probably need to get a new intake manifold as you mentioned. I have read some things about oil pumps and windage assemblies as well. Whats your take on all that?


    I am going to do this right as I said before. I actually have 2 strategy's at this point. One is that I buy the engine, tranny and blower all up front and get them up to par in my garage.
    I wait on buying the car until I have my powerplant because I could use my credit union for a small low interest loan to grab a decent chassis and start getting the car to look how I want it.

    Or I by the car first... and peice it together. I like the first option better but I'm not to proud to admit Im stupid!
     
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  10. stangr5oh

    stangr5oh Active Member

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    I would purchase the car first. This way you know what you have before you start the project. Once you buy the car, you may find out that the car is fine the way it is and not want to do the coyote swap, and or may want to go a different route altogether. In my honest opinion, it is best to get the car first then work around that. You may end up with a foxbody or 05 and up stang. You never know until you stand in front of one that you like.
     
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  11. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    its hard to argue with that wisdom! haha

    But that said I already know I will be getting an 99-04 body style... honestly its really the only style Mustang I actually like.
    Foxes, classics and the new ones... just not my thing.
     
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  12. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    Honestly, if you're looking to spend $25k and make 500 rwhp, I'd simply opt for an 03/04 Terminator, throw the usual bolt-ons on, and be done with it. Can you make the same power with a Coyote swap? Sure. Can you make the same power with the built bottom end and blower-combo 2-valve? Sure. There's plenty of ways to do it, but none will be as easy as buying an 03 Cobra (which, btw, go for less than $20k all the time these days), porting/pulley-ing the blower, adding a CAI, throwing on a nice exhaust, tuning it, and calling it a day. Will make 480-500 rwhp all day long and never give a lick of trouble. Plenty of potential gain beyond that, and lots of aftermarket as well. On top of that, it's a Cobra and will actually hold its value in the long term.
     
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  13. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    I have considered this line of action multiple times, but what I keep coming back too, is that I don't want someone elses car, I want my own. I know that sounds completely petty, but there is something about the wrench time you put in and the satisfaction of making it run on your own.

    With that said, I am leaning away from the Coyote at this point, it only because the more I read about it, the more I am finding that the end cost really ends of killing you on all the extra stuff you end up having to buy. Thats not to say I wont change my mind again come purchase time, but as of right now, I am activley researching stroker engines and places to get them for a solid deal.

    I have read many opinion pieces about the 2v engine, most of them coming form the Mopar world and people have a tendency to discount them. But then I see actual data showing that a forged 4.6 can hold its own against anything in its class when done right.

    I should also clarify that I am not looking to spend anything too high on the chasis. I have big plans for the body and looks of the car, which are just as important to me, because I like to be "that guy" at the show with the killer looking ride. Sold the Duster to make room for the Mustang... and i am trying to get all the input I can so that as soon as I start making moves, I'll be ready to kill it.
     
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  14. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    That's fair enough.

    If you want a very stout 2-valve, it's actually not all that difficult to do. Here's how I would do it:

    -Stock crank and block
    -2012 Boss 302 rods (or 03/04 Cobra rods if you can find them cheap)
    -03/04 Cobra pistons, or a cheap aftermarket set
    -King OE replacement rod and main bearings
    -Total Seal rings
    -OEM main and head bolts (side bolts are reusable, and rod bolts are included with Boss 302 rods)
    -MHS Stage 1 PI blower cams
    -Nice blower of your choice (2.3 TVS, 2.6 Kenne Bell, D1SC, T-trim, etc.), intercooled of course

    That should put you pretty close. You might could get away with stock cams depending on how much boost you're willing to push. But as the boost goes up, so too does the load on the valve springs, head gaskets, head bolts, and intake manifold. So you've just got to be more careful there if you're going big boost (15+ pounds). There’s other ways of doing it (higher RPM stroker with nitrous, or a turbo setup, etc.), but none of them as cheap as above. Of course, there’s a few other things involved as well.

    Machine work. Hone and clean at a minimum. Only bore if it’s required. Probably resurface the heads while you’re at it. Contrary to what a lot of people will tell you, balancing the rotating assembly is not required so long as you are using a matching set of pistons and a matching set of rods. I know of a lot of very fast cars around my area running just fine with an “unbalanced” rotating assembly. But if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, go for it.

    Drivetrain. If it’s an auto car, you’ll need a converter, trans cooler, and J-mod at a minimum. A mild build is best. With a manual car, a clutch will be required if you’re going to be driving it hard at all. And depending on how hard you drive it, a set of 31 spline axles will probably be needed as well.

    Fuel system. You’ll need injectors. 39 pounders will be fairly close to maxed out at 500 rwhp. 60 pounders would be better. At least a 90 mm Lightning MAF will be needed. And of course the fuel pump. You'll need at least 320 LPH to support 500 rwhp and keep a little capacity buffer.
     
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  15. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    ok this is some excellent info. So as you see it, most of the work you have mentioned will suffice for what I originally posted as the desired power to the rear end.

    Now if I wanted to up the ante another 100 HP to 600, is there a breaking point in there?

    So from the last couple weeks I came up with this as my initial plan. Given that I am still several months away (moving to a new house with bigger garage :banana:) I will have time to shop around for the right deals.

    Ok so this.. and feel free to jump all over me for something usless or stupid if thats what it is.

    Stage 1 of build:

    MMR Street Mod 900SE 4.75 Liter Stroker 2V Longblock
    with

    - Stage 2 cams
    - Trickflow heads
    - reinforced mainstuds and headstuds
    - stainless valves
    - hi lift springs
    - upgraded oil pump

    All that is $8200

    Pretty sure thats my route (right now lol) for the power plant.

    Fuel system is up in the air at this point, so point me in the direction of a bang for buck scenario here, knowing that stage 2 and 3 are coming.

    Stage 2

    3.90 rear end $650
    forged rear axels - $250
    forged driveshaft $300
    K member with Coil overs - $700 - $1000 depending on which route I go
    upgrade shocks / struts (lowering) - $500 - $600
    Stage 2 clutch - $400

    $3200

    Stage 3 /Stage 4 (lol)

    Intercooled Power adder - $2800 -$5000?
    *Transmission upgrade $ 2500 (this may or may not happen... may be one of those things I just let ride until she goes.
    frame support - $600

    AS you can see ive planned for somwhere in the neighborhood of 18000 - 20000 in performance. but i will go up if the right plan is in place.

    Original budget is 25k over all but ive been know to stretch for stuff!
     
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  16. COramprat

    COramprat Drone Driver
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    Find a 99-04 that is in a rarer category. I have a Saleen and you can find them in various stages for a good price. You can also look at Roush. My car has pretty much everything that can be thrown into a 2V engine.

    Make sure you don't "overcam" if you want a power adder. My car has Comp 278's with a compression ratio of 11.4 to 1. Not the compression you want to charge or you will get a loud boom.
     
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  17. sneaky98gt

    sneaky98gt Mustang Master

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    The jump from 500 rwhp to 600 rwhp is a significant one, so be prepared to spend a lot more money.

    At 600, you're likely going to need aftermarket cams and/or heads, plus all the supporting valvetrain mods. You're REALLY got to have a good transmission and converter/clutch to hold that power. Built rear end is required. And a significant fuel system overhaul will be required, too. I'm assuming you'd be doing the work yourself, because if you're paying someone to do this, it will go WAY over $20,000.

    You could go that way if you wanted with the MMR motor, but you could certainly do it for a lot cheaper if you did it yourself and sourced the exact parts that would work for your setup. The stock crank and block are fine to 600 so long as you're not turning a ton of rpm with it (6500+). So really the only things you need are rods, pistons, rings, bearings, and hardware. Even sourcing nice, new parts, you could get all of the above for under $2000 pretty easily. Add a set of ported heads and cams for another $2000 ish, and you're at about half what you would have spent buying it from MMR.

    As mentioned by CoRampant above, I would stick with a smaller cam. An under-cammed car will ALWAYS be faster than an over-cammed car, especially with boost. As for heads, I know I'll get a lot of grief here, but I wouldn't recommend the Trickflow heads. I simply haven't seen anything that impressive with them. There's more than a few ported PI cars out there making 700+ rwhp, and I'm sure they have better torque lower in the rpm range than the Trickflows would. As with the cams, I'd opt to go smaller rather than larger on the heads. A "stage 2" set would probably be what you're looking for. I'd strongly recommend talking to Modular Head Shop about the heads and cams. They (Nick) are, by far, some of the most knowledgeable folks out there about 4.6 Mustangs, or at least the ones most willing to share a lot of their info and findings online.

    For the fuel system, at 500 rwhp, I'd keep the overall system you have, but just upgrade the wiring and pump. As mentioned earlier, a good 320+ LPH pump will get you over 500 rwhp. The stock tank, hat, and lines will easily make that much. If you go to 600 rwhp, I'd strongly recommend going return style. You can actually do it for relatively cheap: get a tank, lines, and rails from a 97-down car, swap them in, and wire up the pump key hot, and voila. Very simple return-style system. Quite cheap, too. Should be able to do it for under $250 pretty easily. I know a guy running this setup with a 405 Walbro making almost 800 rwhp. And a return style is a thousand times easier to tune, and much simplier (i.e. less things to go wrong). Of course, you'll also need injectors. I'd have to do some research, but I think 39 pounders would be on the verge at 500 rwhp, and 60 pounders would be on the verge at 600 rwhp. So you'd need at least that big. But don't quote me on that.
     
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  18. byuind

    byuind New Member

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    Id be lying if I said I was not absolutley a fan of the Saleen. I've loved that car since my cousin who works at the stamping plant brought his home back in 04.

    But that said you have to drop a serious chunck of change just to get your hands on one, especially a convertible. It doen't make as much sense financially to drop all that money upfront on a car, when I would most likely have a several minor usage dings to fix bodywise (they are always there, except on the most rare of cars). Even a car with 10k on it will have stuff that would drive me nuts.

    Also when you speak of "over caming" I assume you are talking about how the 2v reacts to FI with the different cam profiles? Do you feel that stage 2 cams with a medium profile (somewhere in the neighborhood of .560 with 225)
    OK so this kind of guidance is something that I had actually hoped to get when I mentioned the MMR longblock.

    I figured I could drop in for 8200 or I could build for less than 6000.

    Now once the block is sourced and cleaned, are there any special characteristics about fitment in this engine? Are the internals pretty much plug and play? Or are there things to look out for?

    I would most certainly do the work myself, (well me and some very good friends with really nice tools) so I would want to be on the look out for tolerance problems or anything of that nature. Also, would it be worth just upgrading the crank for insurance purposes? I dont mind spending the money for some peace of mine.

    Cams and heads I will definitley look into more. I would obviously rather save money and skip the name brand like trickflow if the performance increase is only minimal. I like bottom end as much as I like top end, so a good balance is important to me.
     
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  19. COramprat

    COramprat Drone Driver
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    Most cam companies will have a "blower" grind. I don't feel one company is better than another...just preference I guess. You can research other experience.

    If you are building your own motor, there are roller cars you can find in a style you may like. I've seen a few Saleen or Roush rollers for under $5K. But you are right...it may require some body work issues that will require some of your resources.
     
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