Viper tranny owners, what gear are you using?

[ponyboy19]

OK, let me start out by saying that the best tranny advice anyone could give was at the end of that post: put a good shifter on it before you even turn the ignition key. That being said, I'm a little confused about most of the rest. Where did you get those numbers? A T5 weighs 75lbs. and a T56 weighs 120lbs. This is a difference of 45lbs, not 75. But what I'm really wondereing is, my TKO(100lbs) with 300HP at the road and 3.73 rear gears I can take off in second no problem. The TKO has a 1.89:1 second gear, the Viper T56 has a 1.78:1 second gear. You're telling me that with a full 150HP more than I have you can't launch in second? Hell, unless your rear suspension is totally stock (with that kind of money invested in your drivetrain, I certainly hope not) then you should be able to sidestep the clutch in third and still blow my doors in. What problems are you having?

I believe when all said and done the Viper is close to 60-75lbs heavier.. The tranny itself may only be 45-50 lbs heavier but either way you look at it. the t56 has more rotating mass and will require a little more power to operate. you definetly know when you grab a hold of that tranny.

, or step up to 3.73's or 4.10's, and launch in 2nd gear. It's all about how you're comfortable driving.

Sure i could take off in 2nd gear.. I wouldn't want to though.. When reading your post you used the word "Launch" which I automatically put into dragstrip termnology. In which case yeah you can take off in 2nd, although it's just lugging the motor, but your not going to "LAUNCH" in second gear. The 2.66 first gear is worlds apart from the stock t5 3.35 first or the TKO 3.27 first gear.
and what tko do you have.. all the ones I see have
1st at 3.27
2nd at 1.98 not 1.89. which is a pretty good jump from 1.78 second on the viper.

here is a list of them from tremec http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/TR-3550.asp

and for an example in first gear at 25mph with the stock t5 with a 3.35 first gear and 3.73's you would be doing 4088 rpms. with the viper and 2.66 first gear and 4.10's, at 25mph your only doing 3568. so first gear is not going to be a problem. 2nd gear starts aren't needed and will only put unwanted stress on the clutch and drivetrain IMO

 

[ponyboy19]

Thanks ponyboy
Oh for sure. I ordered the D&D shifter with it. Its really a tri-ax with D&D's name on it.
I also ordered a set of 4.10's. Got them for $159. brand new.
Did you race down the quarter with that tranny???
Just wondering what your speed and what gear you were in at the end???(4th or 5th)
Your car is making 30 more horse than me, and your not having any traction problems in first?
I wonder why the stock Viper(car)has only 3.07 rear gear???
Proll'y because of that 450 flbs of torque. yea ha
Thanks
Tino

you should be pretty happy with that set up.. installation is pretty easy if you know how to do some welding.. the one thing i did find though, if you have subframe connectors you will have to notch them out for the new crossmember to sit on the original frame rail otherwise the tranny will sit to low. Don't bother bolting the crossmember in.. it's much more secure and easy to just weld it in with the wire welder. as far as the track goes.. the time i had it there I melted my head and had two dead cylinders.. went 12.5 at 116mph blwn up on drag radials. 1st gear will still fry the tires with but it is more than controlable on the street and 4.10's should maintain the feel of a stock tranny and 3.55-373's. I didn't have much issues with traction on normal street driving even with the t5 but i have quite a bit done with my suspension. As far as the Viper. IMO they run soft gears because it a production car, and had 450/450 under the hood they would rock with a set of 4.30's in the a$$. Oh and in the quarter you should still be in 4th gear.. 4th gear is still a 1:1 just like the t5 is. If you run into any issues and need help just shoot me and email. I've had mine in and out a couple of times and did all the installation myself. The guys at D&D are pretty good.. did you order the McLeod clutch with a fine spline to go with it and a new flywheel.. D&D has a McLeod set up for 279 for the disc and plate and will hold 5-550 hp. pedal feels like stock.

 

[stangbear427]

Huh, I must be dyslexic. That's the same page I got my numbers from. Right, 1.98. Still, even in drag terms, I can run almost the same times taking off in second as in first. There isn't any lugging going on at all, just launch at a higher rpm. I've been reading more and more recently about guys with higher HP cars launching in second at the track, but I wouldn't know first hand- never been too inerested in legal racing...

 

[ponyboy19]

I havn't heard of guys launching in second at the track.. my guess is slicks+5000 rpm launch+high hp and 2nd gear would equal a badly burnt clutch? but maybe on street tires slipping the clutch.

 

[stangbear427]

i love you guys...

 

[stangbear427]

Some guys use a formula like 3.27(for rear gear) multiply 3.37(for first gear) and gives you 11.0199. What that number means is beyond me?

You're about to find out.

I havn't heard of guys launching in second at the track.. my guess is slicks+5000 rpm launch+high hp and 2nd gear would equal a badly burnt clutch? but maybe on street tires slipping the clutch.

OK, here you go: Your Blueprinted Viper6 comes with a 2.66 1st gear, and a 1.78 2nd gear. When multiplied by your 4.10 rear, they come out as 10.906 and 7.298 (7.3). Now, if you still had the stock 2.73 rear, multiplied by your 1st and 2nd, they would yeild 7.2618 (7.3) and 4.8594. Big difference. However, the difference between your 2nd gear with 4.10's and your 1st gear with the stock rear is .0362 (nothing). They both put the same amount of stress (7.3) on the clutch. So if what you are assuming is correct, then anyone who puts a blueprinted Viper tranny in a Mustang with the stock rear end and subjects it to hard high rpm launches in 1st gear is going to have badly burned clutches.

 

[silverlx5.0]

Well finally saved enough coin for the Viper from D&D.
But now what gear should I use?
Right now I have a 3.55, but throught other posts guys went with a 4.10.
This is a street driven car with H/C/I and blower setup.
Do you guys think that 4.10 are good are should I go with 3.73's.
I used a great site to calculate the RPM for each gear with 4.10's.
Just my main concern is traction.
Thanks
Tino

In my 96 Cobra I ran 4.30's and a lot of people I should have gone taller... That motor redliness to about 7K so I have plenty of room to rev in that motor. At 70mph I was turning about 2200-2300 RPM's

 

[ponyboy19]

You're about to find out.

OK, here you go: Your Blueprinted Viper6 comes with a 2.66 1st gear, and a 1.78 2nd gear. When multiplied by your 4.10 rear, they come out as 10.906 and 7.298 (7.3). Now, if you still had the stock 2.73 rear, multiplied by your 1st and 2nd, they would yeild 7.2618 (7.3) and 4.8594. Big difference. However, the difference between your 2nd gear with 4.10's and your 1st gear with the stock rear is .0362 (nothing). They both put the same amount of stress (7.3) on the clutch. So if what you are assuming is correct, then anyone who puts a blueprinted Viper tranny in a Mustang with the stock rear end and subjects it to hard high rpm launches in 1st gear is going to have badly burned clutches.

first if anyone uses the Viper tranny and 2.73's there out to lunch, 2.73's and a t5 with a 3.35 1st and a 1.99 second is a joke. and second if you did I still say a car with slicks (which means no wheel spin) will likely burn the clutch unless it's rated for ton of power in which case it will fall flat on it's face. there just isn't enough gearing there. if the wheels breaks loose then your set, get them to stick with a set of slicks from the get go and my guess is it won't do the clutch/ET any justice because it will burn the clutch or fall on it's face. . and to use your little set up.. viper + 2.73's in second gear would do 95 mph at 6040rpms and 55 mph at 3500 rpms.. I can only wonder what you'd use the last 3-4 gears for? I'm not going to argue a hypothetical what if on a second gear launch theory that may vary on set up to begin with. just my opinion.

 

[forced87GT]

you should be pretty happy with that set up.. installation is pretty easy if you know how to do some welding.. the one thing i did find though, if you have subframe connectors you will have to notch them out for the new crossmember to sit on the original frame rail otherwise the tranny will sit to low. Don't bother bolting the crossmember in.. it's much more secure and easy to just weld it in with the wire welder. as far as the track goes.. the time i had it there I melted my head and had two dead cylinders.. went 12.5 at 116mph blwn up on drag radials. 1st gear will still fry the tires with but it is more than controlable on the street and 4.10's should maintain the feel of a stock tranny and 3.55-373's. I didn't have much issues with traction on normal street driving even with the t5 but i have quite a bit done with my suspension. As far as the Viper. IMO they run soft gears because it a production car, and had 450/450 under the hood they would rock with a set of 4.30's in the a$$. Oh and in the quarter you should still be in 4th gear.. 4th gear is still a 1:1 just like the t5 is. If you run into any issues and need help just shoot me and email. I've had mine in and out a couple of times and did all the installation myself. The guys at D&D are pretty good.. did you order the McLeod clutch with a fine spline to go with it and a new flywheel.. D&D has a McLeod set up for 279 for the disc and plate and will hold 5-550 hp. pedal feels like stock.

Thanks ponyboy
I have a center force clutch. I got the disc for it too.
Have you ever seen the RPM calculator over at all ford mustangs???
Just wondering if it is right --- reason being because with 4.10's at 116 MPH in the 1/4 you'd be reving at 7096 RPM's in 4th gear.

Sorry to hear about the head and cylinders. Did you figure out what happened???
How does the Viper shift??? Up here we have alittle bit of snow. So its going to be a while before I can take her out.
Is it nice and smooth or little choppy?
Oh hows your reverse? Some say to get the reverse lookout from GM or something on those lines.
Thanks

 

[ponyboy19]

Thanks ponyboy
I have a center force clutch. I got the disc for it too.
Have you ever seen the RPM calculator over at all ford mustangs???
Just wondering if it is right --- reason being because with 4.10's at 116 MPH in the 1/4 you'd be reving at 7096 RPM's in 4th gear.

Sorry to hear about the head and cylinders. Did you figure out what happened???
How does the Viper shift??? Up here we have alittle bit of snow. So its going to be a while before I can take her out.
Is it nice and smooth or little choppy?
Oh hows your reverse? Some say to get the reverse lookout from GM or something on those lines.
Thanks

yeah the stock block flexed and it blew the head gasket.. it was running 10.8:1 a/f top side with only 17 degrees total timing so it wasn't detonation. Just a stock block thing. So instead of fixing it I sold the whole motor and blower and I am planning a 408 that will be built by Bennett Racing and will be on the wild side. hoping for 550-575 n/a then 800+ with boost in a year or two with the viper behind it. the Viper is a little close and choppy and takes a bit of getting use to before you try powershifting give it a good 500 mile break in for the tranny and clutch. Reverse is a pain because the viper used an electronic sylonoid to allow you to into reverse. in the mustang unless you hook it up to a switch you have to push through the sylinoid and into reverse.. it's hard at first and I actually called to figure out how the hell to get it to go backwards not a big deal just got to put your elbow into it when pushing over to the right and up. you can feel it go through. And I hear you on the snow.. Got a foot of it in my yard now.

And them RPMS are a bit off. 1:1 with a 26" tire should go 116 at 6151 rpms with a 28" tire it will go 116mph at 5712 rpms. http://www.quiknet.com/~ke6vut/rpmcalc.html

Using the all fords calc with the 245/45/17 tires i get 6225 at 116 and 4.10's in fourth gear.

 

[fastang67]

I too love you guys... I just stepped in this conversation today. I have been putting mine together since the begining of time it seems. I plan on 4.10's. I have the viper t56 on the pallet stareing me down. I got the clutch, shifter billet flywheel & cool knob as well. I would like help with the frame rail connecters though. I was expecting to leave the rails as they are but cut the cross member to fit around em. Please send me some pics and or advice. I have the maximum motorsports rails. I think they were extra or super something, they go to the seats as well.

 

[ponyboy19]

basically on mine i had 1x2 subframe connectors on the car. what I did is install the tranny and bell housing to the block. then i installed the crossmember to the tranny and bolted the cross member mounting brackets to the cross member. once lifted up into possition i noticed the tranny sitting on a downward angle (the rear was to low) and the shifter was sitting to low into the tunnel. I took a saz saw and cut out a piece of the after market subframe connector so that the original frame was showing. then slide the bracket up into the slot in the after market subframe and set it onto the original frame. The bracket will now fit perfect and the tranny will now fit perfectly in the tunnel and the mounting bracket can be welded in and the crossmember bolts tightened down.. not hard just time consuming.. if you wanted you could later splice the subframes back in over the bracket.

If I were redoing it I would look into fabbing a custom bracket up that was deeper and would slide over both the aftermarket and factory frame rail and maintain the proper crossmember bolt mounting flange possition, or have a local shop do it. You could possibly cut the bottom off and remove the outer L shape of the bracket and then use the inside piece and mounting location and tach it in the proper possition on the inside of the rails.. then fab a new LI shape portion with more dept to go over the aftermarket and original frame. NOT SURE IF THAT WOULD WORK as I don't have a clear picture in my head as to where the crossmember bolt flange is on the bracket. either way it needs to be moved up using one of the methods.. atleast mine did on my 95 gt.
Always test fit and see how it fits in the tunnel, if it's level, and where you shifter possition is, so it's not sitting to low in the tunnel.. when finished correctly you won't know it wasn't a stock tranny.

 

[stangbear427]

first if anyone uses the Viper tranny and 2.73's there out to lunch, 2.73's and a t5 with a 3.35 1st and a 1.99 second is a joke. and second if you did I still say a car with slicks (which means no wheel spin) will likely burn the clutch unless it's rated for ton of power in which case it will fall flat on it's face. there just isn't enough gearing there. if the wheels breaks loose then your set, get them to stick with a set of slicks from the get go and my guess is it won't do the clutch/ET any justice because it will burn the clutch or fall on it's face. . and to use your little set up.. viper + 2.73's in second gear would do 95 mph at 6040rpms and 55 mph at 3500 rpms.. I can only wonder what you'd use the last 3-4 gears for? I'm not going to argue a hypothetical what if on a second gear launch theory that may vary on set up to begin with. just my opinion.

First, if anyone has the kind of horsepower you had behind your Viper and doesn't have a clutch rated for it they are out to lunch themselves. Second, didn't somebody say the Dodge Viper has a 3.08 rear, with about the same HP? Now, would you ever put a 3.08 rear in you car? I wouldn't, and I'm a big proponent for always using the tallest gear possible. Using the same method, the Dodge Viper with the Dodge Viper transmission with the Dodge Viper rear comes out as 8.1928- which you will notice is a lot closer to our stock rear/T56's 7.2618 example than it is to your 10.906 with 4.10's. I've never heard of a Viper falling on its face at any speed in any gear at any RPM, only that if anything they smoke the tires regardless of those factors. I have never heard of one buring up clutches either- and if it couldn't handle having slicks on it Dodge would have died of embarrassment by now. This isn't a hypothetical situation, it's a production vehicle. Since 3.08:1 is also an available rear gear for our Mustangs, we can create the exact same scenario with it. Also, with that much HP, anyone trapping 95mph in the quarter is doing something else wrong, so you would use the first three gears, not only the first two. Advantage being that you would only have to make two shifts in your run, not the usual three and end in fourth gear. As for what to do with the other three, what does anyone do? the fifth gear in my wifes stock 5spd/302 LX is all but useless powerwise, as is the sixth gear in stock F-bodies. So why did those cars come with them to begin with? This isn't an argument, it's a discussion. If you aren't enjoying it as much as I am, sorry. Hopefully, you'll get over it.

 

[forced87GT]

And them RPMS are a bit off. 1:1 with a 26" tire should go 116 at 6151 rpms with a 28" tire it will go 116mph at 5712 rpms. http://www.quiknet.com/~ke6vut/rpmcalc.html

Using the all fords calc with the 245/45/17 tires i get 6225 at 116 and 4.10's in fourth gear.

Thanks again ponyboy
Please correct me if I am wrong, but. 245/45/17 means that 45mm is 1.77inches. So 1.77 * 2 + 17 for the rim = 20.54.
Doesn't that mean I have a 20.54 inch diameter tire?
So using that calculator I would be reving at 7096RPM's in 4th.
Sorry man, I don't know where you came up with that number, but please let me know. I am not trying to step on any toes here.
I beleive you when you say you lost performance going to the Viper trans.
Thats why I asked this question. I wanted to know if anyone else had problems with gearing this bad boy. I, like everyone else(street driven car) proll'y want's the best of both world's. Great driveability and great take-off.
That's why I went with the Viper trans. But I just want opinions of what rear gear to throw in there.
I right now am with you. 4.10's. I just think I would be having to go into 5th in the 1/4.
Thanks

 

[gp001]

Thanks again ponyboy
Please correct me if I am wrong, but. 245/45/17 means that 45mm is 1.77inches. So 1.77 * 2 + 17 for the rim = 20.54.

Thanks

The aspect ratio (45) is a percentage of the section width. The correct way to calculate tire diameter and convert to inches is

Tire DIam = [2 x (section width / 25.4) x (aspect ratio /100) ] + rim diam.

The 25.4 is to convert mm to inches

So,

[ 2 x (245/25.4) x (45/100)] + 17 = [2 x 9.65 x .45] + 17 = 8.68 + 17 = 25.68

Here is a chart using the Viper T-56 gear ratios, 245/45-17, and 4.10

http://www.2mfffabshop.com/gr/t56_410_2454517.htm

 

[forced87GT]

Thanks, that is great

 

[ponyboy19]

First, if anyone has the kind of horsepower you had behind your Viper and doesn't have a clutch rated for it they are out to lunch themselves.

Well I used a Mcleod 550 hp clutch in mine. and my feeling is I'd never would have done a 2nd gear launch with slicks on the car with 3:73's. 4.10's may have changed my opinion as to whether it would or wouldn't have burnt the clutch or fell on it's face I don't know.. as I stated before IMO it wouldn't have worked well. And this is based off my car, my hp, and my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and feelings with the set up. It's a guess. 3:73's and 2nd starts wasn't needed, espcially in day to day street driving. like you originally proposed and I think we have already shown 4.10's wouldn't require it either.

Dodge Viper with the Dodge Viper transmission with the Dodge Viper rear comes out as 8.1928- which you will notice is a lot closer to our stock rear/T56's 7.2618 example than it is to your 10.906 with 4.10's. .

there is a pretty big difference between 8.1928 and 7.2618. and by the way have you ever ridden in a stock viper.. I have in a GTS and to be honest it needed a LOT more gear. Was not overly impressed with the feel of that car

with that much HP, anyone trapping 95mph in the quarter is doing something else wrong, so you would use the first three gears, not only the first two. Advantage being that you would only have to make two shifts in your run, not the usual three and end in fourth gear.

Who said anything about trapping out at 95mph and only using 2 gears. I was simply trying to make you see how soft that gearing senerio is. and look at what you said. using your analogy it would make more sense running 2.73's in a T5 and trying to only use the first 3 gears.. despite the fact that a gear change to 3:73's or 4:10's, getting a much higher torque multipication, and trapping out higher in 4th is proven to cut up to .5 seconds off your ET's.

. As for what to do with the other three, what does anyone do? the fifth gear in my wifes stock 5spd/302 LX is all but useless powerwise, as is the sixth gear in stock F-bodies. So why did those cars come with them to begin with.

your right 5th is all but usless other than as an overdrive like intended.. and the F bodies six speeds are not the same.. they have a (2.97 1st, 2.07 2nd, 1.43 3rd, 1.1 4th, .80 5th, .62 6th) and you can see that the 5th is .80 which would be a bit high for 80mph highway speeds (although would make a nice road coarse gear) and the .62 6th is much closer to the T5's .68 5th gear than the Vipers .50 6th gear is. So I know what I would use them for.. OverDrive like intended.

And back to the gearing. why would you ever want to start out in 2nd gear. Perhaps it wouldn't smoke a clutch. if making 540 and have a 5-550 hp clutch if the resistance is high enough I think the "CHANCE" is there with a 2nd gear launch at 5000+ rpms on stickies, perhaps I'm wrong, I have NOT tried it, but again who would want to do that.. the viper and 4.10's would do 43 mph in first gear at 6065 rpms on a 26" tire or 46mph with a 28" tire and 6025 rpms. If you would launch out in second with that combination then boy I hope your the guy lining up next to me because with the better torque multiplication vs. you trying to motor your way to 70 mph from a dead stop in 2nd gear I'd blow your doors off. this "discussion" makes no sense.

If your trying to prove "I was wrong" then perhaps i was. I've already admitted it's "my guess", "IMO" and so forth. Fact is you can run all the #'s you want. things will vary on clutch set ups, hp ratings, Hp of the car, how close the HP is to capablities of the clutch and drive train, Condition of the clutch set up, amount of stick on the track, and so on.. but bottom line if you run the numbers a 2nd gear start is not needed neither on the street nor on the track. and a Dodge Viper is a dog with stock gearing as would be a Mustang with 2:73/3:08's and a viper tranny..

 

[ponyboy19]

Thanks, that is great

is this the one you were using?


http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/608.shtml

 

[forced87GT]

yes, do you think its right?

 

[ponyboy19]

yes, do you think its right?

seems to match all the others out there so I think you can pretty much say it's right.