I am looking for some suggestions on a good intake and carb combo. I Just had my 289 rebuilt about a year ago. It has an Elgin Pro stock E-959-P camshaft(.448/.472 lift and 204/214 duration @.050), stock heads, headers. I have a t-5 and 3.55 gears. This is my daily driver so I want to be able to get decent gas milege (about 12- 14 mpg). Someone told me to get an edelbrock performet intake, and a holley 600cfm street carb. But I wanted to get more opinions. So let me know what you guys think.
Want to upgrade to a 4bl, need some suggestions
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since you have a mild combination i recommend using the edelbrock performer intake.
as to the carb selection, there are two i recommend for your combo;
1: the edelbrock 500cfm carb(the 1403 is an electric choke model iirc)
2: the autolite 4100 with the 1.08 venturies.
i have used both carbs, and found them to be excellent. for fuel economy the autolite carb is the better choice, but they are harder to find unless you contact pony carburetors.
as to the carb selection, there are two i recommend for your combo;
1: the edelbrock 500cfm carb(the 1403 is an electric choke model iirc)
2: the autolite 4100 with the 1.08 venturies.
i have used both carbs, and found them to be excellent. for fuel economy the autolite carb is the better choice, but they are harder to find unless you contact pony carburetors.
Here are the facts:
1. You need 145 cfm per 100 hp
a. This means you need at least 450 for 300hp and more for more.
2. Most carbs flow only 85% of their rated flow.
a. This means a 650 will flow about 555 in real life.
b. This means a 650 will allow you to build about 365 hp (real world numbers)
3. To size a carb for a hipo application double your cid and add 50
4. This means 650 cfm @ whatever the vacum number Holley uses
5. Get the double pumper. It already has a 6.5 power valve
6. Also get a very good electric fuel pump soley for the elimination of vapor lock.
Don't listen to people who tell you to run a smaller carb. I've run the 650 dp on 289's for 37 years with killer results. Throttle responce from idle to max put some fi cars to shame.
1. You need 145 cfm per 100 hp
a. This means you need at least 450 for 300hp and more for more.
2. Most carbs flow only 85% of their rated flow.
a. This means a 650 will flow about 555 in real life.
b. This means a 650 will allow you to build about 365 hp (real world numbers)
3. To size a carb for a hipo application double your cid and add 50
4. This means 650 cfm @ whatever the vacum number Holley uses
5. Get the double pumper. It already has a 6.5 power valve
6. Also get a very good electric fuel pump soley for the elimination of vapor lock.
Don't listen to people who tell you to run a smaller carb. I've run the 650 dp on 289's for 37 years with killer results. Throttle responce from idle to max put some fi cars to shame.
zookeeper
Founding Member
Since you want mileage, the double pumper is the last thing you want. I've had nothig but good luck with similar combos to yours with 600cfm Holley, model 1850. Most people tend to over-cam, over-carb and over-gear street cars. Stick to milder combos for street cars and you'l be a lot happier in these days of $3.50 gas.
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If he wants mileage as well as perfomance, the LAST thing he wants is a double pumper Holley. .............................................Intake? Here's my list to choose from: Ford Racing A321, Weiand Stealth, Edelbrock Performer RPM (reg or airgap) or their older F4B (same intake as the Ford A321, Shelby Cobra and C9OX) These all work as well on the bottom end as the Performer (or stock 4 bbl iron intake) but give you room to breathe up top.
For a daily driver, I'd recommend the Edelbrock 500 or 600 cfm w/ electric choke and a Performer intake. It's much less maintenance than a Holley and holds its tune. I got a tune when I installed my Edelbrock 600 and haven't touched it in over 3 years - it sails through emissions every time on the first try. Throttle response is excellent.
If you were after every ounce of performance, I'd recommend the Holley.
If you were after every ounce of performance, I'd recommend the Holley.
The Holleys I run hold their tunes that long too. When it seems one is "out of tune" the problem is rarely the carb, but an ignition problem causing it.
The Holleys I run hold their tunes that long too. When it seems one is "out of tune" the problem is rarely the carb, but an ignition problem causing it.
Yeah but do they go that long without leaking? Both my Dad and my brother in law gave up on fixing the leaks in their Holleys and switched to Edelbrocks...they are both very happy.
either an edelbrock 2121 or better a wieand 8124, for reliability an edelbrock 500 or 600 carb, for the best power/throttle response a road demon or road demon jr 525 or 625 better than either one........find a used holley projection analog 670 TBI usually around 275.00-300.00 bolt it on either intake and you will get more hp, more TQ, easier cold starts, smoother idle, throttle response that is almost too responsive, about 2-4 mpg's better than a carb and best of all you can adjust choke,accell pump shot, idle, midrange and power from the drivers seat without ever lifting the hood and while driving, also there is an add on for an 02 sensor so it adjusts itself except for WOT, I still have one I'm hanging on to, on my old 351w with comp 268 cam, ported 69 heads, edel performer I tried holleys, carters, edelbrocks and nothing came close to that setup, I would pull 19 mpg's with that engine a c-4 and 3.00 gears at 70 mph's, my best tuned carb got 15-16 as long as the cam isn't too big they work bitchen....the closest carb I have run was a demon.
my 67 http://htwheelz.smugmug.com
my 67 http://htwheelz.smugmug.com
zookeeper
Founding Member
Ain't that the truth? The first thing everyone wants to blame is the carb. The worse the motor is the worse the carb is going to work, period. But nobody wants to believe their ignition needs work, or the plugs are shot or that the rings are on their way out. It's much easier to blame the carb. Besides, I'd like someone to explain exacly how a carb can get out of tune every few weeks like some guys will have you believe. Do the jet sizes change? Do the idle mixture screws vibrate loose? Those who think they need to constantly mess with their carbs don't have them right to begin with and don't understand how they work, in my opinion. I'm no wizard, but the Holley on my wife's Corvette is better than 10 years old, with no problems, and the pair of Holley 4 barrels on my '68 have proven to not be the headache everyone would lead you to think. In fact, Hearne knows what I mean, he's had at least two street cars I know of with multiple carbs that ran well on the street.
The Holleys I run hold their tunes that long too. When it seems one is "out of tune" the problem is rarely the carb, but an ignition problem causing it.
pabear89
Active Member
My vote goes to an Airgap intake and a 600 vac sec Holley.
No hot plate under the carb and very good street milage.
Plus it looks good too.
PB
No hot plate under the carb and very good street milage.
Plus it looks good too.
PB
Only time I had Holleys leak was running AvGas.
In my dual quad 427 The Benzene was the cause of the leaks. Otherwise they're leak free.
You can find some decent rebuilt carbs on jegs or summit sometimes, I think I got a manual choke 1405 Edelbrock 600cfm for about 160 bucks, and it had a warranty too.
You can find Holley 4160's on ebay for 100 bucks or so depending. Rebuilding them is cake, and tuning them for just driving the car is cake too. Only reason I had a holley fail on me is the throttle shaft started leaking after 4 years, and thats because the carb was bought used from bubba, and my linkage was pulling on the throttle plate past its point where it should stop. So kinda my fault.
I think you would be fine with the performer 289 Intake and a holley 4150/60. I ran that for years on a mostly stock 289 and it was excellent.
You can find Holley 4160's on ebay for 100 bucks or so depending. Rebuilding them is cake, and tuning them for just driving the car is cake too. Only reason I had a holley fail on me is the throttle shaft started leaking after 4 years, and thats because the carb was bought used from bubba, and my linkage was pulling on the throttle plate past its point where it should stop. So kinda my fault.
I think you would be fine with the performer 289 Intake and a holley 4150/60. I ran that for years on a mostly stock 289 and it was excellent.
An AIR-GAP????? on a STREET CAR????? Talk about mis-matched components! Performer RPM....you bet....1500-6500 rpm manifold....needs a 6500 rpm carb. But an AIR-GAP??? Pitiful cold engine/weather driveability...seen it and I live in S.C.
My 289/tri-y/Cobra (F4B)/Fireball-I/3.25 axle 65 with the 650 dp returned 16/21 with BFG 215/60 Euro T/A's. Plus it would eat a 79 turbo Trans/Am's lunch.
ALL your parts need to be built for the SAME rpm range. Period. Start putting an AIR-GAP manifold on your car with a 500 cfm carb and see how a 4400 rpm carb goes with a 7500 rpm COLD air manifold. I paid for my 66 SS-427 Chevelle off people who did things JUST like that. If you are going to go with a 500 cfm carb remember that when you NEED more carb you will have to go back and BUY more carb.
Before the late model reusable gaskets (the old ones were cork) we called it
"HOLLEY-ITUS"
The cork would age, harden, shrink and leak..plus some cheap skates would try and reuse them....that never worked.
Yea, Air Gap. It's not that different than an RPM or anyother dual plane high rise intake. As for it staying "cold" that's a tool of advertising campaigns. Once the engine reaches operating temps, the intake does as well. It's also plain here you've bought into the "matching parts" preaching the aftermarket companies do. Sure, there are SOME parts combos that don't work (like a Vic Jr on a bone stock 82 Crown Vic 302) but there are lots that do work together. Most carbed engines have some sort of cold weather driveability issues too, an Air gap RPM with a small carb will, just as well as one with a Performer 289 intake under it to some extent. Dual plane intakes are simply not as sensitive to the rpm range as a single plane is, I've run enough of em to know this to be true. As for eating a 79 Turbo Trans Ams lunch, that aint a tall order by a long shot.
You matched a 1,000 lb lighter car with twice the torque output of the T/A and you really think that's impressive? What was the list number of your "Double Pumper" Holley?
zookeeper
Founding Member
I'm not sure I'd be puffng my chest out about whupping a '79 ANYTHING.That wasn't exactly a peak of American car performance. But I gotta take exception with your theory about "needing" a large carb for the street. There's no such thing as a "6500 rpm carb", period. Ever see the kind of power a NASCAR racer gets out of a 390cfm Holley? Even your local saturday night circle track guys easily get 400hp out of 500cfm Holley two barrels.
Yea, Air Gap. It's not that different than an RPM or anyother dual plane high rise intake. As for it staying "cold" that's a tool of advertising campaigns. Once the engine reaches operating temps, the intake does as well. It's also plain here you've bought into the "matching parts" preaching the aftermarket companies do. Sure, there are SOME parts combos that don't work (like a Vic Jr on a bone stock 82 Crown Vic 302) but there are lots that do work together. Most carbed engines have some sort of cold weather driveability issues too, an Air gap RPM with a small carb will, just as well as one with a Performer 289 intake under it to some extent. Dual plane intakes are simply not as sensitive to the rpm range as a single plane is, I've run enough of em to know this to be true. As for eating a 79 Turbo Trans Ams lunch, that aint a tall order by a long shot.
1. 289'S don't make more torque than a turbo 305
2. 4777...without a suffix, smart ass
3. Get some real world experience and get back to me.
4. 'Bought into the ad campoaings'????? right...like Shelby's "Cobra Kits" that were MATCHED componets....kind of like the Gurney-Weslake 305 I had in 68....you know.
everything in the engine was built for 8500 rpm. Ever been THERE? Didn't think so. Or how about Dan Perrin's Cross-Ram Dual 4-barrell Chambered exhaust 68 Z/28 that he turned into an 'f' gas 287 cid 13,000 rpm 10.2 1/4 cart in 1974?
Do you think he used components that were designed to operate at wildly different rpm?
God, please deliver me from the fools who konw more than people who have actually DONE something.
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