Weber Carbs?

[65FBE2]

Anyone using these on a sbf? They look interesting and cost about the same as a 3x2 setup. Is there a proformance gain over conventional carbs?
I have seen on ebay a setup with manifold for $1995 I think they were IDF 44's

 

[rbohm]

weber carbs are an interesting addition to a performance engine. you can get a pretty decent gain in performance since you have a large amount of available airflow. that said however, understand that tuning webers is an art as well as a science. they also require patience during the tuning phase. there are like 1000 different combinations, and 999 are wrong for your engine. once you get them tuned though, they are set until you make changes to your combination.

my advice is if you think you are up to tuning essentially 8 carbs to get everything right, go for it. webers are hard to beat even with efi. if on the other hand you are not willing to take the time, or dont have the patience, to tune the combination, then get a 3x2 or dual quad setup if you want multiple carbs, as they are much easier to tune.

also understand that unless these carbs your are looking at are brand new, that $2k investment is going to cost you probably another $!k in parts just to bring the carbs to original factory condition.

think long and hard about whether or not you are willing to make the investment in time and money for these carbs.

 

[mustbereel]

I have a set of 48IDA Webers on a 347 in my fastback. The IDF carbs are supposed to be more "streetable". I have no experience with the IDF carbs.

Properly set up the IDA carbs are completely streetable. However, as rbohm said, tuning is difficult to say the least. I spent a considerable amount of time trying to tune them myself with less than satisfactory results. Eventually I'll take the car to an expert for final tuning. Don't believe what you may hear about having to retune them. Tuning is done by changing numerous jets and metering valves which obviously can't change themselves to fall out of tune. They have to be synchronized as well which is fairly easy if you have the proper tools and some patience.

That being said here are my top three reasons for Webers. 1. The look. Can't beat the look of 8 velocity stacks on a V8. 2. Throttle response. (almost instantaneous, even on/off like). 3. The sound. Full throttle symphony from under the hood as well as the exhaust.

Top three reasons not to get Webers. 1. Tuning. 2. Cost. 3. Actually I can't think of a third reason.

I probably won't do it again but I still have my eye on stack injection as offered by TWM Induction but that's even more money and has its own tuning issues.

 

[kylehamilton79]

Did you see that episode of Gearz on December 26th? Just wondering because Stacy David was showing how to build a tri-power setup using Webers or building a 6-pack with the holleys. He used a company that has a kit to set it up to work correctly. I'm no help on the performance side though, all I have is my single 2-barrel.

 

[amorrow]

You won't be able to justify Webers from a cost or performance standpoint, as there are far cheaper and easier ways to make more power. BUT...if you have the same desire for Webers I had, there's just no substitute. The look, the sound, the throttle response, that on/off feel of power, the history behind them, and the WOW factor are just too much to pass up!

I have 48 IDAs with the original-style waterneck manifold on my 363 stroker, and after a lot of reading and attempt to quickly educate myself on Weber tuning, I was just too eager to drive my car and decided to hand it over to someone more experienced and have it tuned on a chassis dyno. I just got too anxious after a couple months of tinkering and trying to figure out why cylinders would quit firing and I couldn't get rid of that low-rpm flat spot. I just wasn't experienced enough to interpret plugs, side-pipe deposits, smells, sounds, feels, etc. While I'd love to learn the art of Weber tuning first-hand, it was nice getting my car back with the things just screaming at WOT, and I don't regret it one bit. Just keep in mind this'll cost you...but as I already hinted at, Webers aren't cheap and easy.

But whether tuning them yourself or having someone else do it, I offer an additional piece of advice, and that's to keep in mind a chassis dyno will be your best friend; I was surprised after I heard how much the jetting changed, even thought the Weber builder was given all my engine specs, including my custom Weber-specific cam.

Also keep in mind that new Webers aren't necessarily perfect Webers. You'd think float levels would be consistent, passages totally clean and free of debris, etc...but that's not always the case. I was very surprised to learn that such precise pieces of machinery can be so far off, right out-of-the-box. And even though some of the distributors claim they're ready to bolt-on, that 999/1000 chance of landing the correct combo off the bat is probably accurate. Just because you provide your engine specs, once you get on a chassis dyno, you may be surprised how far off the jetting ends up being.

I've only had my dyno-tuned Weber'd engine going for a couple months before cold weather hit, but so far I wouldn't trade them for anything. I don't have experience with IDFs, either...but they just don't offer the original look of the IDAs. I imagine many are deterred from IDAs due to the lack of any choke, and the fact they've always been sold and marketed as "race" carburetors. However, I've never had any trouble starting my car, whether hot or hold, in 80-degree humid weather or in 50-degree dry weather, so I don't see any need for a choke. I do hear popping quite often at idle and deceleration, but that's probably due to my mufflerless 3" exhaust with x-pipe. Depending on how healthy your engine is [as I've heard higher output engines are easier to tune with Webers], 48 IDAs can be perfectly streetable.

And FYI, in case you're wondering about filters, I've heard good things about ITG, and have called them about setting me up with something for IDAs with the '65 GT350 hood. I don't have anything yet, but plan to have something by spring. I still have to get them clearance dimensions before figuring out what will work. Supposedly these filters are the least restrictive of anything offered. It's just insane how much power many of the available filters can rob a Weber induction.

Below are a couple pics of my 363 that made 375rwhp and 408rwtq at ~6K rpm using AFR 205 heads, Inglese Stage 2 Weber cam (mild, Weber-friendly 115 LSA, 5.0 firing order), 1-3/4" FPA headers and 3" side-exit exhaust with x-pipe.

<a href="http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/amorrow002/?action=view&current=EngineBay-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/amorrow002/EngineBay-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/amorrow002/?action=view&current=VINTag016.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/amorrow002/VINTag016.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[D.Hearne]

Below are a couple pics of my 363 that made 375rwhp and 408rwtq at ~6K rpm using AFR 205 heads, Inglese Stage 2 Weber cam (mild, Weber-friendly 115 LSA, 5.0 firing order),

That sounds like an EFI cam. Wouldn't surprise me if it was. I've found that carbs just plain work better with the wide LSA EFI cams

 

[amorrow]

The cam I used is actually made by Comp Cams, as they now own Inglese. Here's the specific cam I bought....

Inglese: Inglese Hydraulic Roller Series Cam, Ford Windsor 5.0 Firing Order, Stage 2

 

[D.Hearne]

Yea, they're pretty close to their EFI, Nitrous and blower cams. Except they favor the intake instead of the exhaust.

 

[rbohm]

amorrow made an interesting point about the webers and the lack of a choke. while there is no choke plate, the webers do have a choke circuit that adds extra fuel when the engine is cold, thus no need for a choke plate like you find on other carbs.

and to give you an idea of just how much tuning will be needed for these carbs, here is a list of everything i can think of that is adjustable on weber carbs;

idle fuel jet
idle emulsion tube
idle mixture
idle air corrector jet
main jet
main emulsion tube
main air corrector jet
accelerator pump bypass jet
accelerator pump nozzle
main venturies
intake stacks
needle and seat
choke circuit jet

i know i am missing something, but you get the idea. and when you make a change on one circuit, you might have to make a change elsewhere as well. also on the webers, the idle circuit actually operates up to 3k rpm where the main circuit fully takes over. and when tuning the main circuit, dont just change the main jet. sometimes the air corrector jet is what needs changing, and some times the emulsion tube needs changing, sometimes all three.

this is where an experienced tuner and a dyno is real helpful.

by the way, dont let what is written here scare you away from webers if you can afford them. personally i love weber carbs. when tuned right they flat out work great from idle to 10k rpms very smoothly, and they make power all the way through that range. but do read what was written and understand that the journey is difficult, but the end result is worth the effort. also webers actually do pretty well on fuel economy as well since you have pretty tight control on the fuel mixtures at all rpms.

 

[rbohm]

That 363 looks incredibly SWEET!

I love webers and was seriously considering them at one time.

As I recall, they provide awesome torque even at low rpms. I seem to remember that a single plane was better for high RPM above 6500 or so due to the runner length of the webers (you can only shorten the runner so much because of the webers height). Is this true?

unless you are using an adapter on say a performer intake, weber intakes are individual runner intakes, there is no single or dual plane manifolds used. this is what makes webers so good. you tune for the individual cylinder, and the whole engine combination at the same time. one thing about the webers is the velocity stacks that you can change to raise or lower the rpm range where you get peak torque. be aware though that webers can have issues with fuel stand off, thats where you get a cloud of fuel vapor that literally hangs over the top of the carb while the engine is running, if the stacks are too short. by the way all carbs can have fuel stand off issues, but not to the extent that webers can.

 

[65FBE2]

This is what I saw and thought would be somthing to try. An comments?
http://stores.ebay.com/WeberCarbOut...utletQQ_sidZ242668902?_nkw=ford&submit=Search

 

[amorrow]

amorrow made an interesting point about the webers and the lack of a choke. while there is no choke plate, the webers do have a choke circuit that adds extra fuel when the engine is cold, thus no need for a choke plate like you find on other carbs.

While that is true of most Webers including IDFs, that's actually not the case for IDAs. They're unique in that there is no starting or choke circuit. The accelerator pump [only activated by depressing the accelerator pedal] is the only means by which more fuel can be delivered to the intake at start-up.

 

[amorrow]

This is what I saw and thought would be somthing to try. An comments?
http://stores.ebay.com/WeberCarbOut...utletQQ_sidZ242668902?_nkw=ford&submit=Search

The same tuning and advice should apply regardless of whether you choose IDFs or IDAs. I honestly don't know the limits of 44 IDFs, but I do know 48 IDAs have plenty capablility for any SBF. My advise would be to call some of the major Weber sellers (Inglese, Pierce Manifolds, Weber Carbs Direct, etc), inform them of your goals and engine specs to see if 44 IDFs are capable for your setup, and go from there. You will have a choke circuit with IDFs, however I see no need for one considering my IDAs allow the engine to fire just fine.

 

[rbohm]

While that is true of most Webers including IDFs, that's actually not the case for IDAs. They're unique in that there is no starting or choke circuit. The accelerator pump [only activated by depressing the accelerator pedal] is the only means by which more fuel can be delivered to the intake at start-up.

good to know. most of my experience is dealing with dcoe sidedraft webers. i thought the ida's also had the choke circuit as well.

 

[htwheelz67]

that cam does look like a blower cam, funny my custom hyd roller has less lift on the exhaust as well and 113.8 lca, webers are cool once their tuned they are like efi.....and awsome power.

 

[2+2GT]

Ford offered these early in the game.

The top cam available when that kit came out was the 289HP C3OZ-6250-C. I have to think the cam they ended up using with them was the C7FE-6250-A Cobra LeMans.

Ford Camshaft ID & Applications

 

[htwheelz67]

that was a crap load of money back then 695.00 was about 1/4 of the cost of the whole car brand new. You could buy a house for about 15 grand in those days.......so if you factor in inflation webers are a great deal today compared to back then......almost dirt cheap.

 

[2+2GT]

Yeah, that's about $4700 in today's money.

Here's a kit for $2850.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...3fffd9ab6&rvr_id=&ua=M*??&itemid=360209563329