iskwezm
10 Year Member
I dont think anybody considers Hemmings as a source for high performance products65mistress said:
Well, it didn't sell
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xoxbxfx
Founding Member
man...Im gonna be completely honest...probably not what you are gonna want to hear.
Price was started to high
no intercooler
cant run power steering
cant run a sway bar
cant run a/c
I wouldnt want a painted setup... high temp or powder coat only for the hot side
Theres not enough fact...lots of guessing
Your description will scare people off simply because you tell them they can split their block in half
People want to know the power THAT kit will make, not yours
The problem as discussed before and the reason I didnt start the whole turbo kits for classics is everyone is runnin something different. Different suspension, different radiators, different waterpumps, different motors, different everything. Its hard to make a universal kit.
I understand you have a lot of money in parts but I personally wouldnt spend $3k for it because there are so many things I would want to see like an intercooler, carb included...no one that is new to turbos knows anything about blow thru carbs, tuning... heck, finding a local tuning shop can be hard because its a carb. Turbos respond much better with fuel injection over carb setups. Everyone thats learning about turbos sees everone with turbos wanting intercoolers and see it as a necessity. Me, do I think I need an intercooler...hell yeah, and I feel I know enough to build kits for a living. I think they are necessitity...
Basically, theres to much guessing and not enough fact. Are there instructions for install? Instructions for buying parts that you need with the kit or where to buy them??
Price was started to high
no intercooler
cant run power steering
cant run a sway bar
cant run a/c
I wouldnt want a painted setup... high temp or powder coat only for the hot side
Theres not enough fact...lots of guessing
Your description will scare people off simply because you tell them they can split their block in half
People want to know the power THAT kit will make, not yours
The problem as discussed before and the reason I didnt start the whole turbo kits for classics is everyone is runnin something different. Different suspension, different radiators, different waterpumps, different motors, different everything. Its hard to make a universal kit.
I understand you have a lot of money in parts but I personally wouldnt spend $3k for it because there are so many things I would want to see like an intercooler, carb included...no one that is new to turbos knows anything about blow thru carbs, tuning... heck, finding a local tuning shop can be hard because its a carb. Turbos respond much better with fuel injection over carb setups. Everyone thats learning about turbos sees everone with turbos wanting intercoolers and see it as a necessity. Me, do I think I need an intercooler...hell yeah, and I feel I know enough to build kits for a living. I think they are necessitity...
Basically, theres to much guessing and not enough fact. Are there instructions for install? Instructions for buying parts that you need with the kit or where to buy them??
stangonline
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- Feb 22, 2003
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AHh, I remember seeing this now. The first thing I looked for was the IC - no IC? I know the project is probably difficult to begin with and routing an intercooler would only add to the task, but personally, I wouldn't run a turbo kit without one. I had some pictures of a killer turbo project that someone was building - if anyone knows about any updates, let me know! (Ill try to post the pics)
stangonline
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MrBobMarley
Founding Member
You guys complaining about lack of intercoolers should probably read up a bit more on turbos. They are not always necessary, believe it or not. Look at paul302's setup also. 10 second car with no i/c. Check out Corky Bell's book, I think it's called Maximum Boost.
xoxbxfx
Founding Member
MrBobMarley said:
thats exactly my point... those who dont know about it want them and think they are necessity. Look at all the ricers with their fake intercoolers an junk like that. New 03/04 cobras have heat exchangers which are the same principal. I believe an intercooler is cheap insurnace.
MrBobMarley
Founding Member
You're right. It's too bad because the average car guy that's heard or seen turbo cars(online probably) hasn't researched anything but the word turbo kit.
About the kit not selling, I still think that gas is hitting your demographic's pockets hard. You're looking at anywhere from 18 to mid 30's but I'd safely guess MOST of the turbo wanting crowd is in their mid twenties. Am I right?
Stangonline, you got a link on that thing?
About the kit not selling, I still think that gas is hitting your demographic's pockets hard. You're looking at anywhere from 18 to mid 30's but I'd safely guess MOST of the turbo wanting crowd is in their mid twenties. Am I right?
Stangonline, you got a link on that thing?
stangonline
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I guess I need to qualify myself here....I've owned an aftercooled t-trim setup and we installed an HP single kit on my friends 7k mile 93gt - other than the kit, 100% stock and over 600rwtq.
I've spent years on turbomustangs.com, so I know about combos that dont require ICs. The fact is, most people prefer them, especially here in Florida. That MP T70 that's included with the kit is going to want an IC on any street driven car with more than 6lbs of boost, and especially in hotter climates.
There are other ways to get around ICs and most people who aren't using them are either running very little boost, or have some other means of cooling the charge. Edit: Wanted to add that I've seen some pretty high PSI setups without ICs at the track, but they are usually in a perpetual state of cooldown, that is, they don't make many back to back passes.
Now, I'll agree that it might work fine on some drag cars that run moderate boost on cool december nights.
Edit: I guess what I am saying is that running without an IC is like running too small an injector, at a higher pressure to compensate. It can be done, but it may not be optimal.
MrBob - I found that on cardomain.com - and I dug DEEP. I didn't save a link and haven't been able to find it again
I've spent years on turbomustangs.com, so I know about combos that dont require ICs. The fact is, most people prefer them, especially here in Florida. That MP T70 that's included with the kit is going to want an IC on any street driven car with more than 6lbs of boost, and especially in hotter climates.
There are other ways to get around ICs and most people who aren't using them are either running very little boost, or have some other means of cooling the charge. Edit: Wanted to add that I've seen some pretty high PSI setups without ICs at the track, but they are usually in a perpetual state of cooldown, that is, they don't make many back to back passes.
Now, I'll agree that it might work fine on some drag cars that run moderate boost on cool december nights.
Edit: I guess what I am saying is that running without an IC is like running too small an injector, at a higher pressure to compensate. It can be done, but it may not be optimal.
MrBob - I found that on cardomain.com - and I dug DEEP. I didn't save a link and haven't been able to find it again
stangonline
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Crap! - and just like that, I found it again!
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/838966
Doesn't look like it's had any updates since the last time I looked.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/838966
Doesn't look like it's had any updates since the last time I looked.
Stangninjak
Member
- Apr 16, 2004
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Have to agree about the IC. I know people who run a supercharger without a IC. It can be done yes, but having the IC or a aftercooler is safe insurance. I would not even attempt to run a turbo in MIA FL without a IC. Your just begging for your engine to go B O O M
MrBobMarley
Founding Member
I/C is good insurance, I agree. Btw, how long did your buds 5.0 block last with the hp kit? 1993 means hyper pistons, not forged right?
Dude, that's gonna be a bad car. Twin turbo 427
He stole my idea, I wanted to have deep dish black bullitts on a classic first
I wonder how he's gonna get traction. It'll be over 1000 horse probably.
Dude, that's gonna be a bad car. Twin turbo 427
He stole my idea, I wanted to have deep dish black bullitts on a classic first I wonder how he's gonna get traction. It'll be over 1000 horse probably.
stangonline
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It's still together, believe it or not - 16+lbs. However, he did eat a set of head gaskets, finally (they were original!). He doesn't drive it much though and it's a pretty safe tune as far as the fuel goes, but I too think it's a time bomb
Here's a link to his car: http://www.turbochargedpower.com/1993 Mustang GT - Briane Howland.htm
(they were original!). He doesn't drive it much though and it's a pretty safe tune as far as the fuel goes, but I too think it's a time bomb Here's a link to his car: http://www.turbochargedpower.com/1993 Mustang GT - Briane Howland.htm
On the CarDomain car, what's the point of those super long intake runners with a twin turbo and a 427? I would think you'd want to do all you could to cut down the low end torque.
On the gas mileage issue, I thought that a turbo was the BEST solution for balancing power output with fuel economy. That is, the big air flow/fuel flow is only there when you tip in the throttle. At cruise, boost is nominal. This is in comparison to any other form of supercharging, or of NA carbed engines of equivalent output.
On the sway bar issue, I wonder if you could not fab a rear-mounted sway bar. All you need is a transverse bar with a couple mounting points, and a couple lever pieces which could clamp on or be welded to the transverse bar.
Evaluating 10 Second's kit from the point of view of a fairly ignorant buyer, it looks like, in addition to the $2900 for the blower, BOV, wastegate, exhaust, and cold side ductwork, I also will need a hat ($140-$200), a blow through carb $600?), an Aeromotive fuel pump ($200?), some exhaust tailpipe work ($200?), a return fuel line ($100?), a serious electric fan ($200?), and in most cases an upgraded radiator ($400). That's about another $2000.
So now we're at $4900 minimum.
Because boost is so good at overcoming intake deficiencies, I might not need a new intake or heads or a cam, but if I'm running a 289 or 302 with iron heads, or even with the typical 165 cc AFR's, and also with a dual plane intake and a mild NA spec cam, to optimize the combo I should probably dump another $2500 into upgrades here (minus $1000 for the value of the takeoffs).
So now the $2900 kit is a $6400 kit.
And unless I build a new shortblock, the eBay ad tells me it might split my block or melt my cast pistons! Add another $2000 for a suitably beefy shortblock. $8400.
Now that kind of money can buy you a really nice crate engine, including EFI and a Procharger or the like. Or if you're into drag racing only, you could go for a junkyard 460 ci 385 series and some FRPP/Kaase Cobra Jet heads and pop out 700 hp that way. And with either the blown Windsor or the big block you can run AC and PS. I don't know about the sway bar with the big block, but it's no problem with the Windsor.
Also, whenever you're stepping up to this level, you're going to need a 9" and a built C4 or C6. Or if you're in the stick shift realm, a 4-spd toploader will hang, but that 3-spd or T-5 has got to go. So there's another $3000-$4000.
$11,400-$12,400 for the maxed shortblock setup, $9,400-$10,400 for the OE cast crank and pistons.
Having said all that, it's still an attractive package. For $2000, 10 Seconds kit would fly off the shelves. At $2000, it's a "what the hell" deal. It's that extra $1000 that, the way I feel about it anyway, that lifts it to a higher level and has me wondering about the alternatives.
On the gas mileage issue, I thought that a turbo was the BEST solution for balancing power output with fuel economy. That is, the big air flow/fuel flow is only there when you tip in the throttle. At cruise, boost is nominal. This is in comparison to any other form of supercharging, or of NA carbed engines of equivalent output.
On the sway bar issue, I wonder if you could not fab a rear-mounted sway bar. All you need is a transverse bar with a couple mounting points, and a couple lever pieces which could clamp on or be welded to the transverse bar.
Evaluating 10 Second's kit from the point of view of a fairly ignorant buyer, it looks like, in addition to the $2900 for the blower, BOV, wastegate, exhaust, and cold side ductwork, I also will need a hat ($140-$200), a blow through carb $600?), an Aeromotive fuel pump ($200?), some exhaust tailpipe work ($200?), a return fuel line ($100?), a serious electric fan ($200?), and in most cases an upgraded radiator ($400). That's about another $2000.
So now we're at $4900 minimum.
Because boost is so good at overcoming intake deficiencies, I might not need a new intake or heads or a cam, but if I'm running a 289 or 302 with iron heads, or even with the typical 165 cc AFR's, and also with a dual plane intake and a mild NA spec cam, to optimize the combo I should probably dump another $2500 into upgrades here (minus $1000 for the value of the takeoffs).
So now the $2900 kit is a $6400 kit.
And unless I build a new shortblock, the eBay ad tells me it might split my block or melt my cast pistons! Add another $2000 for a suitably beefy shortblock. $8400.
Now that kind of money can buy you a really nice crate engine, including EFI and a Procharger or the like. Or if you're into drag racing only, you could go for a junkyard 460 ci 385 series and some FRPP/Kaase Cobra Jet heads and pop out 700 hp that way. And with either the blown Windsor or the big block you can run AC and PS. I don't know about the sway bar with the big block, but it's no problem with the Windsor.
Also, whenever you're stepping up to this level, you're going to need a 9" and a built C4 or C6. Or if you're in the stick shift realm, a 4-spd toploader will hang, but that 3-spd or T-5 has got to go. So there's another $3000-$4000.
$11,400-$12,400 for the maxed shortblock setup, $9,400-$10,400 for the OE cast crank and pistons.
Having said all that, it's still an attractive package. For $2000, 10 Seconds kit would fly off the shelves. At $2000, it's a "what the hell" deal. It's that extra $1000 that, the way I feel about it anyway, that lifts it to a higher level and has me wondering about the alternatives.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I forgot to add to my previous post's "whiteboard" list of add-on costs, the cost of a new hood to clear the turbo plumbing. A "cowl induction" hood from Maier Racing goes for about $500 once you factor in shipping etc. I don't know if it would even work, but the supert trick Year One carbon fiber T-bolt style hood is $625, plus extras.
And vis-a-vis that twin turbo 427 vapor ware car, here's a 331 TT, EFI, intercooled Stang that has been on the road for the past year: http://home.inreach.com/ekyock/TT331FB_WEB/index.htm
Here's a pic:
It belongs to R100RT, who is a Stangnet regular but doesn't seem to post in here too often. He says it's 100% DIY.
Edit: a BTW to 10 Second Goal: last night I showed the wife the pics from your Stangnet post and from eBay and I asked her if I could offer $2900 for your kit, thinking to put it in our '65. She said no -- something about house payments, paying the kids' college tuition, food -- you know, stupid stuff. She said to check back with her in three years.
And vis-a-vis that twin turbo 427 vapor ware car, here's a 331 TT, EFI, intercooled Stang that has been on the road for the past year: http://home.inreach.com/ekyock/TT331FB_WEB/index.htm
Here's a pic:
It belongs to R100RT, who is a Stangnet regular but doesn't seem to post in here too often. He says it's 100% DIY.
Edit: a BTW to 10 Second Goal: last night I showed the wife the pics from your Stangnet post and from eBay and I asked her if I could offer $2900 for your kit, thinking to put it in our '65. She said no
-- something about house payments, paying the kids' college tuition, food -- you know, stupid stuff. She said to check back with her in three years. 
A67StangMaster
New Member
I rater buy a blower much easyer to install.. all you run into is hood problems thats all...
Sorry man.....
Sorry man.....
iskwezm
10 Year Member
ANY forced air setup has extra cost involved. I bought my Paxton kit for $2000, fully polished, but wait, my carb isnt set up for a blow through, so there goes $800 for a powder coated prepped carb........ok, now my fule syste, isnt up to the extra fuel, add another $1200 for sumped tank,1/2" line,fittings,PE 460 GPH pump.....now we're at $4000
My point is a blower is not esier to install and your at your risk when you bolt it onto any engine, also add in i just got a new stroker 349 shortblock........so my total now is $8500+
Am i satisfied..............not yet
If you cant afford it, dont complain that its not a "turn key" kit
My point is a blower is not esier to install and your at your risk when you bolt it onto any engine, also add in i just got a new stroker 349 shortblock........so my total now is $8500+
Am i satisfied..............not yet
If you cant afford it, dont complain that its not a "turn key" kit
I like the kit and would definitely prefer a turbo over a SC, even if the cost is higher, just because it's not something you see everyday.
How close does that lower flex looking hose come to the Balancer? I know a lof the the aftermarket balancers have a larger diameter and that could pose a clearance problem, although it's hard to tell from the pics.
I don't have an answer to the issue on demand but a turbo kit such as this really is not a bolt-on type of thing as the others have stated. If you're gonna build a turbo car, you really have to research the entire build and do it right from the ground up.
I think the kit would be targeted toward people who know nothing about turbos and think they can just slap this on their car and go, and those individuals looking to build a turbocharged stang and are just starting out.
There is much more demand for superchargers in the fox body crowd because most of those kits fit at least the 87-93 cars and there are just more cars out there. I can't say how many people there are with 67-69 stangs looking for a turbo kit, but I wouldn't say it's zero. Unless you are looking to mass produce the kit, I still think you can make money selling a few kits here and there, especially since you've got the hard work already done.
I'm sure you can do a lot of the fab work and leave the expensive items like the turbo, wastegate etc... to be purchased untill you receive an order.
At $2900 though, this still isn't cheap, but what is in this hobby? When people realize that they will need to upgrade their trans, rearend, cooling system, etc... they'll turn the other way.
I could bolt this kit on my car right now as I have nearly all the upgrades it would require minus the fuel system, which is why it is so tempting. but $2900 is a lot right now for me; time to start saving. Once next year's tax return comes in I'll definitely be interested and at that time it will be more affordable. I wouldn't give up on it though, it's an awesome kit and the only one I have seen. If I were to hire someone to do all the fabwork, it would cost much more than $2900
How close does that lower flex looking hose come to the Balancer? I know a lof the the aftermarket balancers have a larger diameter and that could pose a clearance problem, although it's hard to tell from the pics.
I don't have an answer to the issue on demand but a turbo kit such as this really is not a bolt-on type of thing as the others have stated. If you're gonna build a turbo car, you really have to research the entire build and do it right from the ground up.
I think the kit would be targeted toward people who know nothing about turbos and think they can just slap this on their car and go, and those individuals looking to build a turbocharged stang and are just starting out.
There is much more demand for superchargers in the fox body crowd because most of those kits fit at least the 87-93 cars and there are just more cars out there. I can't say how many people there are with 67-69 stangs looking for a turbo kit, but I wouldn't say it's zero. Unless you are looking to mass produce the kit, I still think you can make money selling a few kits here and there, especially since you've got the hard work already done.
I'm sure you can do a lot of the fab work and leave the expensive items like the turbo, wastegate etc... to be purchased untill you receive an order.
At $2900 though, this still isn't cheap, but what is in this hobby? When people realize that they will need to upgrade their trans, rearend, cooling system, etc... they'll turn the other way.
I could bolt this kit on my car right now as I have nearly all the upgrades it would require minus the fuel system, which is why it is so tempting. but $2900 is a lot right now for me; time to start saving. Once next year's tax return comes in I'll definitely be interested and at that time it will be more affordable. I wouldn't give up on it though, it's an awesome kit and the only one I have seen. If I were to hire someone to do all the fabwork, it would cost much more than $2900
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