Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by Cobra Jay, Mar 1, 2010.
funny how brandX is still using pushrods
Funny how BrandX pushrod has nothing to do with the Ford pushrod engine but you can't get off that.
In what area is the Ford 302 Pushrod engine better than the Ford 302 Modular engine?
And btw, the tech between the GM pushrod engines and the Ford pushrod engines are light years apart too.
Brand X has also ALWAYS relied on displacement to make any sort of power as well. I find it strange how many are are falling all over themselves to worship an engine that makes 426hp with 6.2L's, but now when Ford has put one out that makes similar power levels with a full 1.2L less displacement, its "no big thing" because it hasn't got pushrods.
My god are you guys really still
What gives you any indication that it will ever end?
Let me break it down:
Coyote 5.0 > Windsor 5.0. This is fact. I'm sorry, that's just how it is. It is superior to the Windsor in every single mechanical aspect possible. Trying to defy this fact is futile.
GM small blocks vs. Ford small blocks are apples to oranges. You may as well drag in every other manufacturer's V8 out there. How about BMW? The current M3 has a 4.0 V8 that makes 420hp and 295tq and redlines at 8300rpm. It's credited as being the lightest V8 in the world. Is that a fair comparison to the Windsor 302? Probably about as fair of a comparison as either the Coyote or GM small blocks.
Couldn't agree more...on all points.
I factory form, yes, I agree 110%. If you want to consider aftermarket, then it's no so black-and-white. As incredibly super-duper bad ass as the Coyote is, you can't buy an aftermarket Coyote block and bore and stroke the thing to 363ci. I'm not sure you ever will be able to. It will be hard for any engine to EVER approach the aftermarket following the 302 has, but, hey 50 years of production will do that for ya. Times are changing, and engines don't stay around as long as they used to.
But like you said, that's not exactly apples to apples. I'm just trying to justify the pushrod argument. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.
Yeah but who wants to have to buy an aftermarket block and all that noise when you don't have to?
That's the beauty of these newer engines, they are stronger from the factory since they are higher hp from the factory. When you build a dart 363 it's hardly a "ford" engine anymore. The only thing Ford in those engines are the design of the engine they are built around.
"Yeah, this ford pushrod is badass...it has no ford parts in it, but it sure is sweet "
if the mod motors were so much better than pusrod stuff then i think you would see a whole lot more 2V and 4V swaps then people just building an aftermarket block windsor motor or god forbid an LS swap.
To me the only advantage that i would ever build a modular over a pushrod is that the factory blocks can handle some serious HP, but there are a whole ton of moving parts and the heads have 2x the ammount of stuff a windsor motor does, so when you go to rebuild that motor, its gonna cost you a ton more.
Points to consider....there are eleventy billion 302/351W scattered across North America in about 15-different Ford Models over the last 30-years. Engines can be had for next to nothing and they've got a huge aftermarket, so therefore swaps are popular.
99% of the guys that are building their engines from scratch are going for broke and big displacement. I can't think of one person going for big power gains who has stuck with the stock 302ci of displacement, heads, or intake, unless a particular class they're running in requires it. Stroker kits are dirt cheap for OHV Windsor’s, so if building big cubes on a small budget is what you're looking for, the OHV Windsor is the logical choice.
On the other hand, you don't see guys running power adders bolting them onto stock 5.0L HO's and calling it a day like they do with the Mod motors. It’s not even worth turning a wrench on a Windsor unless you're replacing the entire top end of the engine to support the airflow. On the other hand, making 400-500rwhp on a modular engine requires little more than a fuel system upgrade.
So yes...both engines have their high points. But neither of these examples has a thing to do with one engine being better than the other.
The "extra moving parts" argument against the Modular’s ludicrous and shows just how inexperienced (dare I say ignorant) some people are with regards to these engines. Extra moving parts in this case means the ability to run tighter tolerances and more accurate timing components, but otherwise has nothing at all to do with hindering functionality or reliability. The fact that they make more horsepower, with less displacement and run for 300-400K needing little more than regular oil changes proves as much.
It's only sensible to do the modular swap when you plan on making big power(700+hp) in terms of cost at this time.
If you're just wanting a 300-400rwhp car, putting a modular in the car to do it wouldn't be very wise dollar per dollar.
If I was just now getting into modding a Fox, I'd go modular right off the bat because of the power goals I have MY car. 750rwhpish area would be cheaper to get with a modular than it would with a pushrod engine, reliably of course.
My buddies car is a great example of what it takes to build a reliable pushrod engine to take the abuse, the only actual stock Ford parts left on that engine is the power steering pump. Every other single component that came on that engine factory has been replaced.
While you can buy a MMR bottom end, 03 Cobra heads and a 01 Cobra intake, do the turbo kit and make the same power with a stand alone.
I think you read my post how you wanted to hear it.
I never said anything about function or reliability, i said cost, if you brought a 4v head to be rebuilt or serviced its gonna cost more money, there are two times the moving parts, and 4x the ammount of cams. Stuff breaks, valves bend, valve seals leak, thats what i was getting at. Its not ignorance, yea i have no real hands on expierience with the motors but more parts=more money
And as far as running tighter tolerances and and more accurate timing... arent the OHC motors notorious for having different timing on different cams from the factory? from what ive heard degreeing cams on a mod motor is about as fun as a root canal
Ford Racing M-6550-T46 Ford Racing 4.6L DOHC 4V Camshaft Kit
I probally will get a new mustang in a few years considering that now they are actually going to be on par. Once the economy picks back up.
Once you buy an aftermarket 302 block and build it, it's not even a Ford engine anymore as far as i'm concerned since you can LITERALLY build an entire "302" with zero Ford parts. You're getting into a whole different realm there and comparing the two is again apples to oranges. You may as well say "well a Man-O-War tall deck 302 stroked to 370ci running 9k RPM is waaaay superior to the Coyote". That's dumb.
Don't get me wrong...i'm a 302 guy at heart, but don't let your feelings and nostalgia cloud the facts. Compare WHAT IS and not what could be after you spend thousands modifying something. Give it 10 years and lets see how far the Coyote has come.
Very well put.
That's the second time in the same page you and I were 100% in agreement!
and yet cost for the cost they would still come out to the same price, being that the crate engine will probably be 10-12k and make 400hp, or an aftermarket "non ford" ford engine will make a ****load more power than the coyote, so i'll stick to my original argument, all i give a **** about is power, and how i make that power and the pushrod is still cheaper and more superior to that aspect
If nothing else, I have learned a WHOLE hell of a lot in this thread...
I'm excited to order my 2011!
OMG pushrod is ftw, mod is teh sux