Went to the track tonight; Got some problems/questions

[sneaky98gt]

Well, it's been a little while; thought I'd give an update.

I went over to Greenville and talked to the guys I'm gonna get to tune it. They seem really cool, and helpful. They agreed that a tune would help. We'll see, and I'll post a little feedback on these guys once I get it done.

I haven't gotten it tuned yet b/c I'm thinking real hard about getting a catted h-pipe first, and if I decide to do that, I want it on the car before I get a tune. So once I decide/get the h-pipe on the car, I'll be getting it tuned very soon after.

Me and my dad checked the engine vacuum this afternoon. It stayed between 19 and 20 [units] during idle. That's about right, right? So we know that isn't the problem. Really starting to seem that the tune is the problem, but we'll see for sure soon enough.

Winters, my bro works at a agricultural supply store and I'm gonna get him to weigh my car sometime soon, hopefully early this week. I'll get that up when I know. I did have my spare tire, jack, and subs in the back, but all that together is less than 100 lbs, so that's only about .1 s at best.

A funny side story: I just got back from a weekend at Kings Dominion up in VA. Got in my car this afternoon and mashed the gas a couple a times. Maaaan, my car seems PATHETICALLY slow after riding all those roller coasters. I guess 0-70 on those roller coasters in less than 3 seconds is a little bit faster than 0-60 in over 6 seconds in my car....

-Will

 

[ChillPhatCat]

If you're shifting at 5500 rpm, that's to low. The pi cams are designed with more high rpm power in mind. My auto shifts at 6000. Try shifting manually, or get a tuner that you can adjust your shift points with. If you shift maually you need to shift early, beacause of the time it takes for the shift to complete. Try say 5500 rpm and by the time it shifts you might 5800 rpm. I bet if you shift at higher rpm's your times will improve a lot.

Agreed, I don't buy that lack of tune is causing a LOSS of power, I'd venture that it should still be marginally faster than stock, if you drive it according to the cam's design. When you install a cam designed to deliver power higher in the RPM band you're selling yourself short by shifting where you did with the stock setup. If I were the OP, I'd do nothing to the car immediately and go back to the strip and manually shift at 6k and see how that improves the time... just for comparisons sake. You really should get it dyno tuned though after any cam swap.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Agreed, I don't buy that lack of tune is causing a LOSS of power, I'd venture that it should still be marginally faster than stock, if you drive it according to the cam's design. When you install a cam designed to deliver power higher in the RPM band you're selling yourself short by shifting where you did with the stock setup. If I were the OP, I'd do nothing to the car immediately and go back to the strip and manually shift at 6k and see how that improves the time... just for comparisons sake. You really should get it dyno tuned though after any cam swap.

I can't shift at 6000 b/c of the rev limiter (I think its set around 5800), or at least not till I get a programmer. Last time I went to the track (1/8 mile), I made the 1-2 shift as late as possible, around 5700 or so. Made no difference in the time or trap. So idk. Just seems like the car doesn't have the low end power it used to (proved by my 60's) and just doesn't pull up top like I think it should.

My granddad's bone stock 01 auto convertible would smoke my car. And that just doesn't seem right considering all I've done to my car, and how much more the vert weighs. The vert pulls harder out of the hole, and WAY harder up top, all the way to 6000. I know it has the PI heads and all, but from what I've heard, the cams and intake are worth most of the power improvement. My car really seems to die around 4800ish, watch the vid and you can see. I still think something is wrong, just don't know what.

Would the camshaft timing cause this? I'm 99% positive the timing never got off when we did the swap. I thought that if the timing was off the car would run really rough, but idk.

And oh yea, weighed my car the other day. 3420 w/ 1/4 tank and me not in it. So it would be around 3600 at the track. Yea yea, it's a tank and all (full street trim), but it's no different than any of the previous runs I have made.

-Will

 

[TGJ]

You don't need a tune for PI Cams or PI Intake( providing you used the RTV or Livernois plates ). I was one of the first to do a PI Cam and PI intake swap, I followed the footsteps of the first person to do( Johnny Langton ). I do think you need a tune for the 4R70W. A good tune means the world to the auto's.

Way back in 2003, I ran 14.1 @ 96 MPH with just these mods:

PI Intake, PI Cams, Steeda UD Pullies, Mustang GT TC, 3.73TL rearend, custom 2 1/4" Exhaust and SCT tune by Modular Depot on Drag Radials in a 96 Thunderbird. A TBird is considerably heavier and has an IRS compared to the Mustang.

With these changes:

3800 RPM Stall TC, ****ty transmission and so-so tune, 2 1/2" Custom Exhaust and 4.30's, all I could muster was 15.0 @ 90 MPH in 2006. I wasn't impressed. I never did sort that combo out because 2 weeks after that, the car had a major drivetrain facelift.

Now it's running mid-high 12's @ 104 - 107 MPH with traction issues in 3400 DA's... Should have some low 12's high 11's soon...

 

[sneaky98gt]

TGJ, so your saying that your run in 2006 was so crappy b/c of the so-so tune? I think I get what your coming from: I'll see more improvement from getting the transmission right than I will from simply tuning the motor. Makes sense. Now will the only difference I see from the tune (transmission wise anyway) be just the shift points and shift firmness? Or does the tune adjust it some other way, such as when the TC locks?

And I also think that getting a little better flowing exhaust will help me a lot. Hoping to seal the deal on the h-pipe very soon, as in tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

-Will

 

[TGJ]

Locking the TC is an important part of the tune. That was one of my so-so tune issues when my car was running slow. Just for the record, it was not Modular Depot that tuned the car for the TC and 4.30's. I kind of wish I had gone with them for that one...

As well, don't get me wrong, you will benefit from the tune HP wise.

 

[sneaky98gt]

A little update. I finally got a custom tune, although not a dyno tune, just a custom tune on an SCT X3. And an offroad h-pipe is in shipping.

There's no doubt the tune has helped. I upped the shift firmness as stiff as it would go, although still not quite as hard as I would like. I think a little more hp in the top end (h pipe hopefully...) will help that out. I have it shifting around 5900 now. And I'm running on the 93 octane setting. The car is definitely stronger, and I hope to get to the track in about 2 weeks from now.

So I did some data logging with the programmer (SCT X3). Going by the programmer, my 0-60 is between 6.0 and 6.1, quite a bit better than before. I'm not sure just how accurate a comparison this is considering my earlier tests were just using a camera, so tomorrow I'm going to revert it to stock and log those times and what not. Got a few questions about those data logs.

Both short term fuel trims are at .84, which means 16% lean. Is this an acceptable value, or should I add a little fuel? What should the spark be under WOT? Basically, what values should I be looking for in any of the parameters to tell me that everything is right on? I think everything is pretty doggone good, but it definitely doesn't hurt to check. Plus it's fun to get to play with a new toy.

Thanks all.

-Will

 

[Mr. Rustypwnz]

to tell you correctly the a/f you need to put it on a dyno with a wideband and go from there, the x3 is very fun but you tune can get way off fast..


btw i ran 14.20's with a 2.2 60ft. with an x pipe, 4.10's and a pi intake an cai. went back 2 weeks later with pi cams. ran me a 14.0 at 98.5mph with a 2.0 60ft, that was with h&r super race springs (very stiff!!!!!!) now im back to stock springs with no sway bar in the front, and i think it will go 13.80's all day long now.. just dropped my cams in no timing (although i would like to here soon) no tune, stock clutch stock, tb, pretty much a stock car.. now with longtubes and some mhs cams+ tune+=12's are my goal..


if i was to guess your trans is low on fluid or is slipping, get that fixed or looked at and then put a 4.10 in the car, no less!! it will pick up huge sotp difference..

 

[sneaky98gt]

Well, I data logged the stock tune tonight. My worst 93 custom tune 0-60 was about 6.05, and my best stock tune was a 6.45, with identical IATs. So I have picked up a SOLID .4 seconds just in the 0-60. Overall, I'm quite pleased, although I want to see track times before I'm totally satisfied. But that's coming in a few weeks.

Car definitely feels stronger down low, a good bit better up top (I hope the offroad mid pipe will help out there a lot), and I think the most improvement came in the shifting. Looking at the data logs, the car actually speeds up during the 1-2 shift vs losing speed on the stock tune. I feel like that's worth at least .25 seconds or so right there.

It seems that you guys saying it needs a tune were right, although TGJ seemed to really hit the nail on the head about the tranny and all. It's sad to think of guys like him and Winters and squeak leaving Stangnet...

Well, I'll be heading to the track first weekend in November, weather permitting. I'm hoping for at least a 9.3, and hopefully a little better. I'll be sure to post em up when I do. Thanks for all your help!

-Will