Discussion in 'SVT Tech Forum' started by Mach428, Dec 22, 2003.
He definately earns it.
I have owned & raced both cars, and I can easily say that - stock for stock - the Mach 1 is the winner, hands-down.
The reasons are simple:
'01 Cobra: Not much low-end torque to speak of
'03 Mach: ~ 10 - 25 extra rwtq throughout a lot of the powerband
(I've got more torque BONE STOCK in the Mach than I ever had even w/full bolt-ons in the Cobra)
'01 Cobra: 3.27 gears (not a good combo with the lack of torque)
'03 Mach: 3.55 gears (Feels like my Cobra did with 4.10's!)
'01 Cobra: IRS (harder to launch & weighs ~ 90 lbs more than solid axle)
'03 Mach: Solid axle that's tuned for drag-racing
I ran a best of 13.04 @ 104.87 mph in my (full bolt-ons w/275 Nitto DR's) '01 Cobra.
I ran a 13.43 @ 103.81 the 1st time out in my '03 Mach (100% stock on street tires) with a so-so 2.2 60' time.
I'm not knocking the earlier Cobras - I loved mine & hated to see it go.
But let's be honest here - if straight-line performance is the measuring stick,
the earlier Cobras were a great start, but the '03/'04 Mach's are an evolutionary improvement over them.
(Handling is another matter & wasn't part of the question BTW... )
PS: Here's a stock-vs-stock dyno comparison of my '01 & '03 just to illustrate the point:
well i am finally sick of the WRX all together. It's been a year since I totaled the Cobra. I'm thinkin about tradin my WRX in for a Mach 1.... I used to want an 01 cobra but after reading this i may change my mind. does the mach has the same tranny as the 01? also do you think 4.10 gears would be nice in the mach? my other option is a 96-98 cobra again and mod. i rather have the newer car tho, just do exhaust and gears and run low 13's. are the mach's gonna have there own parts or 99+ dohc cobra parts will all work? like exhaust, headers, etc. i havent posted in a longgggggggggg time and i feel like i dont know anything anymore. turned into a ricer for a little too long.
Thanks for this post. Its clear that what alot of 01 Cobra owners say are facts are really myths and lies. Like this one:
"What the mach gains in TQ down low, it gives back in HP up high. that's a fact. I've driven both. the mach runs out of steam. Its got nothing (in stock form) above 6k. the cobra pulls much harder to 7K. But in a stoplight race, the mach will show the cobra its taillights, but not by much."
Obviously this dyno sheet says otherwise.....
The Mach 1 uses the same Tremec 3650 transmission as the '01 Cobra did (the '05 Mustang will use it as well), although there have been some minor internal parts changes.
4.10 gears are just as popular for the Mach 1 as they are for the '99/'01 Cobras.
Some Mach 1 owners even choose 4.30 or 4.56 gears if they are more serious about drag racing.
Depending on your local drag strip conditions & track prep, you may not need ANY mods to run low 13's - a good number of Mach 1's have hit 13.1 - 13.3 without touching anything on the car. Some Mach's have even made it into the high 12's stock.
I ran a 13.43 completely stock (I'm not the best driver), and the track wasn't so great that night either.
Many parts that fit the '99/'01 Cobras will fit the Mach 1, but since the Mach 1 (and the '03 Cobra) use a different exhaust port shape on the heads, things like headers have been re-designed to match the new port shape.
Some Mach 1 owners have used the earlier '99/'01 headers & they work fine though.
Other exhaust items like cat-backs/x or h-pipes are the same as the earlier '99+ GT's.
Certainly nothing wrong with a '96-'98 Cobra - they are great performance cars and can probably be purchased for a reasonable price currently.
Whether you buy new or used is totally your call though...
Good luck with whatever car you decide to buy!
Maybe the '01 Cobras that folks are comparing the Mach 1 to have modded exhaust?
I did JBA 1 5/8" headers/Magnaflow catted X-pipe/Magnaflow cat-back on my '01, and it picked-up almost 40 rwhp at high rpm's.
So, comparing an '01 w/exhaust & headers to a stock '03/'04 Mach might give someone the impression that the Mach is weak-nuts up-top.
(No reason to believe that the Mach wouldn't get the same benefit from a complete exhaust w/headers though).
Another thing to consider is that the '01 is weaker down low, so much so that my car almost felt like it had a small turbo on it!
The power really came-on at the mid-range & higher rpm's in a big way (as tested by the oh-so-accurate "Butt-O-Meter" )
Here's my '01 dyno, which shows what I gained with exhaust:
PS: Unless the '01 Cobra or Mach 1 is heavily-modded, there's no point to take
the rpm's up to redline - shifting well short of 7000 rpm's seems to result in the best 1/4-mile times from both cars.
So, the minor rwhp defecit @ 6850+ rpm shouldn't be a factor,
with maybe the exception being a Bonneville salt-flats race...
Angus...I agree with the balance of your post. My one point of disagreement is shift points with the 99/01 Cobra. They should most definately be shifted as close to redline as possible without hitting the limiter. This is especially true on the 1/2 shift, where you will drop nearly 3000 rpm due to the horrid gearing gap (3.35 to 1.99).
The Mach can be shifted lower because it makes its peak power a tad lower, and also has better midrange - making a less-than-perfect shift not as critical as it is with the older car.
That said....if I had a Mach 1....I'd still shift 1/2 at redline simply because of the gear drop.
Thanks for the correction/clarification Bob...
i drove to the dealer the day after they got a Mach 1 in and i test drove it for about 15 miles. I like the car over all, it pulled harder than my 01 Cobra down low, had the cool shaker hood and then i wasn't impressed anymore after it ran of power up top. After my little run in the Mach (i drove the crap out of it) the dealer asked me if i was ready to start the paper work and i said nope i like my 01 Cobra better! He asked why and i told him
I like the Cobra seats better
I like the IRS better than the solid rear axle
My Cobra handles way better
there were a few other things too
Over all i liked the Mach just not as much as my Cobra
Yes the Mach is alittle faster but i don't think it's as much fun to drive as a Cobra.
I keep hearing this argument/opinion from '01 owners, but since I'm the only one who has posted
anything factual on the subject (the butt-o-meter isn't a good indicator of power output BTW ),
I continue to remain unconvinced that this "Top-End" power advantage exists.
Do you have anything besides seat-of-the-pants feel to back-up this stronger top-end power opinion???
The Mach 1 uses the same seats as the '01 Cobra, with the exception of the suede inserts vs. comfort-weave inserts.
Is that what you like better? The suede & snake logo?
(Not flaming, just curious )
I will give the IRS the handling nod, but it also weighs ~ 90 lbs more as well.
Glad you like your snake - I do miss mine a little sometimes...
The Butt-O-Meter indicated the supossed lack of high end however i have seen many Mach 1 Dyno sheets that say my arse may not be very accurate
It's the suede for sure
The only Facts i have on this discussion is that the Mach does infact put down more power and torque that the 01 Cobra and is thus quicker in the 1320
My car stock makes 280RWHP/306RWTQ with less weight than an 01 cobra.
I alway make myself shift around 6200rpm's max. The Mach's max torque is at 4250rpm's which is much lower than the cobra. If you run the Mach to redline, like you would with an 01 Cobra you would be about 500rpm's a past peak torque. Like all cars you have to know what they want to make em go there fastest.
And I just have to when I hear how this car runs out of top end. Maybe when it hits the limiter but come on guys. One of the members on the registry ran one in the mile races in Texas and exceeded 140mph.
The same or greater HP
Much more torque
3:55 gears solid axle
Physics don't lie, it's power to weight, unless you hit someone that doesn't know how to drive or what his shift points or power band are the Mach's the best NA 4valve yet.
I'm going to see a lot of crying when the new 3 valve comes close or equal to our cars. Time goes on thing get better, just ask the 96-98 Cobra guys after the 99/01's came to market.
Could you please expound on this statement? I'm rather confused. Thanks.
Why? It's called progress.
These are some nice numbers. I recall the first machs with peak HP numbers similar to 01 cobras (about 272 peak), but with two equal peaks. One at about 5000 RPM and one at about 6000 RPM. This gave them about a 2 HP to 3 HP average HP advantage between optimum RPM shift points. I think the optimum shift points would be about 4250 RPM to 7000 RPM. Your graphs would suggest more on the order of a 7 HP or 8 HP advantage for the Machs between 4250 RPM and 7000 RPM.
Still, the Machs seem to have more of an, 0-60 MPH and 1/4 mile time, advantage than the 2% to 3% average HP, shown in your graphs, would suggest. To me it has to be the other setup issues such as suspension, weight and subframe connectors that make most of the difference here, not the engine. Of course they all work together.
Look at the graph again - the rwhp advantage (and where the peaks are made)
in addition to LOTS of extra torque for the '03 4V throughout a good deal of the powerband tell the tale...
The extra toque is why the newer 4V engine really gets the Mach moving.
The other improvements - better gearing/solid axle/subframe connectors - do make the extra torque & hp more usable though.
The Mach seemed easier to drive than my 01 Cobra as well
Both cars are great. People buy the Cobra's or Mach's because they want a unique car. So both are big winners IMO. I'm sure we'll be revisisting this topic when the 05 GT's are close to the HP or both cars.
I could have waited but like most Cobra owners I wanted a Mach and something special not 1 of 200,000 and repeated every year.
Don't know about you guys but mine a keeper and my next car will be either a 07 Cobra or the NA version of the car (whatever they call it: Boss/Shelby)
I think your post and DoubleONegative's summed it up, when it comes to 0-60 and 1/4 mile times the Machs are a bit more powerfull and the better setup simply makes them easier to drive.
I think Ford did a good job on the Machs. The IRS on the 01 cobra's needed more work before they released it.
You know, with all that said, I still love to drive my 01. It's down right fun, and that's what's important to me.
2000 Cobra R > Mach 1
Oh, Sorry....Best NA 4V under $50 Grand.....