Fox Why I Should Not Do A Solid Lifter High Compression Motor

Noobz347

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Jan 4, 1985
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Probably be a fair weather car, no AC, long tubes, 4:10s, and a spool.

Currently has no power steering but.... Yeah, that's probably going back in.

What are my brake options?

Driveability?


Here's the thing... I've just always wanted to do one. So there's no dire need or anything. I'm just comparing feasibility against a Vortech V-1 setup that I already possess.
 
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I think I want to rebuild the one in the white car.
I've given a lot of thought to a high compression na pushrod motor.

Even moderate like11-1. The coyote runs that, doesn't it?

What if you took a 351 based motor and bored and stroked it to a 427 and use that same compression? I think it would be a very fun motor myself.

How crazy do you intend to get?
 
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Not too crazy. It needs to run on pump gas. I don't want to be mixing race fuel on the porch.

If I have to pull covers and plenum once or twice a year, that's ok but I don't want to be tweaking every time I shut it down.

I don't have an RPM target that I'm looking for but I obviously want more revolutions than your typical hydro roller. I think 2500-3000 rpm is a good place to start making hard torque.

You know.... So that all the car alarms are set off as I roll through the parking lot at 20 mph and 4k rpm.

another thought just occurred to me: water/meth

Anyway.... Yeah... Obnoxious enough that Fart Cannon drivers are mouthing the words "azzole" everytime it fires.
 
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A 351 would be ok but I've got nearly everything (including seasoned block) for the 302.


Def worth thinking about though. :chin

Big block cubes and solid lifter. :chin What kind of grunt you think we could get out of something like that?
 
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I would not do this with a stock block 302. Why put all that $ into a block/valvetrain just to worry about it every time the tach swings past 7000rpm?
So, I would start with an R block, or Dart, or, as you are contemplating a 351. The bore stability and ring seal afforded will make more power.
There is really no reason a solid roller with decent heads cannot push 1.5+hp/cu.in on 91 octane. So, if you are thinking 427, that looks like putting 500+ to the wheels, relatively easy.
Consider my 306 with E7te heads (a mere ~215cfm) puts 368/363 to the tire on 91 octane by 6500rpm and still runs the stock power brakes, mechanical water pump, power steering and is not running a vac pump. My motor would easily exceed 400 at the wheels with "real" heads and a little more rpm that they would allow... throw an electric water pump and evac system on it with a different ring package to take advantage... 1.5hp/cu.in is real.
 
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Your 306 and that power range are about where I want to be. If an R block is what is necessary to do that reliably then I've probably already exceeded the effort and money that the V1 would require.

rats
 
A stock 302 block version is going to push the limits of durability. Seems to me that the sweet spot for such a motor is in the 65-7k rpm range. This would be a bad idea long term. If you want to do it and it only sees limited mileage it will last...for awhile.

I'd highly recommend doing this type of build with a 351 based motor. Even a standard stroke 351 with the proper parts can make 500-550 fwhp(600-650 in a stroker version). @90lxcoupe has done this with a 427 and I think he is over 700hp and runs pump gas(not sure on that part).

Check with Ed at flowtechinductions.com for one of his TLSR cams and a good head combo. You basically only have to check/adjust the valves once a year. With the proper cam/head you can run some fairly high compression on pump gas(11-12:1 on the high end).
 
My engine makes around 690 to 715 hp depending on how good or bad the air is, 12:1 compression, .750ish lift 270/280 duration. 240#'s on the seat 650# open springs.

Its not bad maintenance wise(my opinion of course), and has spent 99.5% of its running time on pump fuel. I did a few dyno pulls on ms109 to see if it would be worth running race fuel. I made 10rwhp and 5rwtq more than pump gas. 582 rwhp on pump, 592 rwhp on race fuel, not worth the money unless i need another half a tenth on dragweek or something. I do think there is more power there with e85 but at the time the stock lines on the car would not have supported the volume.

As far as maintenance goes, i dont go more than 750 miles without checking the valves. Now, 750 miles doesnt sound like much to some people, but with these cars not being driven if rain is in the forecast, sometimes it will take a month to put that kind of mileage on it. Which is what i would say, on average, is how often i go thru the valves. Now that i have done it a bunch of times, and have a bump button, it takes about 15-20 minutes to go through them. I also use a LSM tool to check the springs while i am there.

Now onto the wear items, lifters and valvesprings. Lifters... buy good ones, spend the money on a set of iskys or morels. I use isky bushed lifters, there are varying opinions on bushed lifters but i feel in a street engine they are a good idea because there is no risk of needle bearing failure running thru the engine. My maintenance plan on those is every other winter they come out of the car and go to isky for a checkup. I had around 2000 miles on them and sent them to isky, they said the lifter was still within the tolerance of when they were originally produced. Sending them to isky is more of a sanity check for me. Valvesprings... again, buy good ones. I have had good luck with pac's. I went 3000(hard) miles(two dragweeks) on them and found a broken inner spring after dragweek 2015. I spent alot of time on the limiter during dragweek and i think that may have helped the inner break. Now the maintenance plan is to replace them every winter. In the big picture of this engine, 250 bucks for a set of springs is a drop in the bucket and it is about a 4-5 hour job by myself to swap them out.

I had a lengthy conversation with my engine builder about going to a hyd roller cam, ill spare the details but it ended with him saying, "If a lifter rebuild and a set of springs is the cost of being the man, well...."
 
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A stock 302 block version is going to push the limits of durability. Seems to me that the sweet spot for such a motor is in the 65-7k rpm range. This would be a bad idea long term. If you want to do it and it only sees limited mileage it will last...for awhile.
.

It all depends on how much effort is put into said stock block. Zero balance on the crank goes a long way. Cryo freeze the block, put a main support in it and use quality main studs, lightweight rods/pistons and 7,500 plus rpm is easy. Of course you then run into how much money do I put into this compared to buying a good block.
 
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90lxcoupe is making over 1.6hp/cu.in. ... that is pretty darn sporty for pump gas.
Mine breaths through a soda pop straw and makes 1.3hp/cu.in.
Goes to show 1.5hp/cu.in is a reasonable goal when using a good head.

Oh, I went with Comp Cams needle bearing lifters... but am saving to replace them with bushed Morels.
Spending money twice sucks.
 
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It all depends on how much effort is put into said stock block. Zero balance on the crank goes a long way. Cryo freeze the block, put a main support in it and use quality main studs, lightweight rods/pistons and 7,500 plus rpm is easy. Of course you then run into how much money do I put into this compared to buying a good block.
Agreed...but even doing all of those things won't keep the block together compared to an aftermarket block. Like you said cost vs cost and there still is a durability question mark. I just would buy a dart shp or a 351. Even a non roller 351 block can handle 700hp/7k rpms easily enough. A pimped stock 302...I wouldn't trust it long term(relatively speaking).