Why there will never be more than just a "good" car...

I didn't know where to post this, but I figured this is the best place. Call this a matter of opinion, or a case of observation.

I've been thinking about things; Ford Mustang Vs. Chevrolet Camaro, Lamborghini Gallardo Vs. Ferrari 430, Cadillac CTS-V Vs. BMW M5, Subaru STI Vs. Mitsubishi Evolution...

Look at the specs and performance of all of these vehicles, and this is just a very small batch. They're all strong rivals to each other, but why is it that none of the automakers go forth and say, "Ya know what, we're going to blow these guys away. We're really gonna stick it up their exhaust pipes this time." None of these companies make any effort whatsoever to vanquish their competition, once and for all. When they design their new "fighter," they never stray far from the competition. The horsepower numbers are always around the same, the handling is nearly the same, the technology is nearly always the same, etc. The performance between the opponents is usually so close that regardless which one you choose, you win.

...And now along comes Chevrolet with the new 2010 Camaro. They were on a mission. They targeted the Mustang and said, "Ya know what, let's just destroy these guys. Let's just blow them away. I'm sick of the comparisons between Mustang and Camaro, and let's just end it." So, this is what GM did. They redesigned the Camaro with an independent rear suspension, big-horsepower engine, and arguably polarizing styling. For the first time, GM made a true effort to leave the Mustang in the dust, once and for all. The Camaro has the power, arguably the looks, the sophisticated suspension, etc., and now for the second time in history, they have the lead in sales, too.

And then, there are companies like Subaru and Mitsubishi, or Lamborghini and Ferrari. They've been battling for years, but for some reason, neither one of them makes any effort to vanquish the competition; dead-close horsepower figures, handling, suspensions, sophisticated AWD (except Ferrari) setups. Drive either one of them and it wouldn't matter which one you buy, because they'll both get your rocks off.

I have observed that none of these automakers will ever build a great car, because they simply just don't want to. The Camaro will never be a great car, despite sporting all the right hardware. Why? Weight. It's carrying a big gun, but it does no good. With all that horsepower and those sophisticated components, it musters nothing more than an average performance. This is a car that should handle like a sports car, and accelerate nearly as quickly as a Corvette; maybe about .2-.3 off its pace. It doesn't. This is the car that could have scared Ford to death and sent them to the drawing board on its first day of production. It didn't. Ford doesn't even seem to be the least bit worried about it. Honestly, why should they be?

This is so common these days with no company trying to really rid them of their competition. If Lamborghini sees Ferrari put 540 hp under the hood, Lamborghini will retaliate with 541 hp. There just doesn't seem to be any "strive" to build a superior vehicle over that of a rival. Is there some sort of "I won't destroy you, you don't destroy me" deal that these automakers strike with each other?

I know, I sound like I'm just off on a rant and babbling incoherently, but does anyone else just get this same impression that nobody wants to build a superior product?

I completely agree with you 100%. The auto industry should be light years ahead of where we are now but there is no interest to do so.

Yep.

Recently I attended an auto show, and I went there dying to sit in a new Mustang. I was treated to a "sit" in a Kona Blue/White-striped GT500.

As I walked around, I eventually hit the Nissan area, and there sat a new GT-R and 370Z. Oddly enough, the 370Z was the one that grabbed my attention. Having never seen one in person, I just had to check it out. Up close, that car looks incredible. The styling is incredible.

To say the least, I went to the show wanting a Mustang, and left wanting a 370Z, or at least a drive in one.

First thing Monday morning, I hopped in my car and hit the Nissan dealer to drive a 370Z. The car was amazing. The acceleration was nice, the handling was incredible, and the interior was comfortable. I was impressed with everything about this car.

Here's the 370Z which is considered competition to the Mustang. I don't see how, because the 370Z is a sports car and the Mustang is a muscle car.; 2 seats, 4 seats, and a weight difference of nearly 350 lbs. The only two things these cars have remotely in common are acceleration figures. I would classify the 370Z in competition with a standard Porsche Cayman and Mazda RX-8 before classifying it as competition to a Mustang.

I noticed something about the Z. Nissan really made an effort to make a great sports car at an "affordable" price; 4 link independent rear suspension, shortened length, widened width, more power, better handling than the 350Z, and most importantly, WEIGHT. Yes, that's right. The new 370Z weighs 95 pounds LESS than the outgoing 350Z, bringing it to a weight of around 3250 lbs, and all the while, meeting updated safety requirements. They did this by using a carbon fiber driveshaft and a few aluminum body panels. Why is it that a new Mustang or Camaro can't meet safety requirements without lopping on 300 pounds of unnecessary crap?

Anyway, enough nut-hugging of the 370Z, but honestly, the effort Nissan put forth shows, and if every company puts forth the same effort, when people would say, "They sure don't build them like they used to," people would reply in a positive manner, "You're damned right they don't."

It's not only the auto industry that "celebrates" mediocrity, but it's also the entertainment industry. Honestly, what's that last great Metal band you heard? Probably something out of the 80s, and you Metal fans know what I'm talking about. Now, we get stuck with crap bands that shouldn't have ever made it out of the club scene like Lamb of God, Slipknot, Korn, Limp Bizkit, or Papa Roach. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the millennium of mediocrity, where laziness and lack of ambition are king.

Now and then I find the rear seat in the mustang to be a useful thing. And the Zee Car has no V8. And the Zee car is not American.

Good points about the rear seat and the Z not being American. Also, keep in mind that the Americans don't build any really awesome performing sports cars, aside from the Corvette (Viper has since been cancelled). Sure, there are the Solstice and Sky, but neither of them are going to be around for more than another year. If I were to go with either a Solstice or Sky, they would have to be either GXP or Redline versions, and those are creeping over $30,000. For that kind of scratch, I'm going to go with a car that has a better build quality and better all-around performance.

No matter though, a final decision is months away.

automakers will only build cars they can sell. R u gonna spend $50k on a 500hp stang? $57k on a 550hp z28? $65k for the 625hp ford answers with? $72k for chevys counter? an arms race gets expensive.

It looks like Ford wasn't worried about the Camaro because they already had the new 5.0L in the works for 2011. Everyone that bought a 2010GT is going trade up. Sounds like sneaky marketing to me, but 400hp in an engine that weighs the same as the 4.6L is going to sell like crazy. Goodnight Camaro/Challenger.

I'm kind of with everyone else. An "arms race" gets expensive, and I'm sure that GM and Chrysler don't want to get into a pissing contest with Ford.

Something I think we have to keep in mind is that, well, the Mustang . . . won. It won NOT on the uber special 600 horsepower rocket sled model. It won because the V6 standard LX is a nice car that people felt comfortable buying. The Mustang won because, from what I recall, for every GT that roared off the lot, 4 or 5 LX's quietly followed them out, too. For every LS-*.* that left the lot, maybe a V6 or two came behind it . . . or not.

Also, as an "older guy" driving a GT, I feel a lot more comfortable getting out of it at work than some other gray headed dude in a Formula Firebird or whatever Camaro. I look like an older guy who still likes to enjoy his ride to work. They look like they're still cruising on Saturday nights hunting high school girls who want to be seen in a cool car. And like it or not, as prices rise and tastes change, there are far more gray headed guys buying GT's than there are 17 year old boys who saved up their paper route money.

Throw that in with the Mustang history and mistique, and you have a tough package to overcome.

That being said, as far as the question on why doesn't someone just make an uber car to beat the pants off of the competition, I guess the answer is "why?" Didn't the last edition of Camaro/Firebird basically blow anything the Mustang had out of the water? Wasn't that motor the bees knees? Didn't that thing do 700+ horsepower by just painting the valve covers and converting over to synthetic blinker fluid? I mean, that motor was the end all, be all for everything. I can remember Mustang fanboys begrudgingly swooning over it. Sooooooo . . . what happened?

It's simple. Horsepower doesn't REALLY sell. COOL horsepower sells. Acceptable horsepower sells. Properly marketed horsepower sells. The Camaro/Firebird REALLY wasn't any of that.

Is the Camaro or Challenger a threat to the Mustang now? Most likely, no. The few I see around here are primarily driven by people older than me. On the other hand, I see younger people driving V6 Mustangs regularly. I RARELY see a non-V8 Camaro or Challenger. Like I said years ago, V8's make the press and V6's make your profit.

So, if you're Ford, why bother?

One other thing, and this may sound odd, but . . . do we REALLY want a bunch of 700 or 800 horsepower cars at affordable prices? Right now, you can buy a reasonably priced 13-14 second sedan that is over 4500 pounds. That's a lot of car available to a lot of people. Let's say that Ford throws down the gauntlet and makes an 700 horsepower (to the rear wheels) Mustang that does 1.05 on a skidpad, high 11's in the quarter, and tops out a bit over 200 mph . . . for $32k. Sounds sweet, eh? Think again. It's like the first time I carried a gun in public. I'm looking around going "hehehehehe, these suckers don't know I have a gun". It took 7.8 seconds for the next reality to hit: "crap, how many of THESE suckers are carrying one, too!?!?" Put out a super whatever at a good price, and you'll have every 19 year old "oh, I'm a really good driver" boy in America dying to get one . . . and a good percentage will be successful. Morons on motorcycles really bother me. Idiots in SUV's cause near death events ever minute. Can you imagine what an easily afforded rocket ship would do to the public roads? Feh, I get nervous when I think about how fast cars are NOW.

Step 1) define "great"
Step 2) build a business case on why it would be profitable to build a "great" car

//what a stupid thread give me a break...

Well put.

And, obviously, this thread was created before the Coyote announcement.

I can kind of see a point in this thread.

But if you consider the capital that goes into engineering new technology....I think that is where you limit things. Yeah, we have all sorts of tech available to us, but how much of that is practical in making an everyday reliable car for a price people will pay. f

Sure, the new Camaro brought forth a powerful engine and some good tech....but the weight kills it. A number of reasons for that....but to make that body style in something lightweight would have required extensive use of lightweight body materials, which are expensive and not the safest. So, you are left with a car that is not practical to the mass market. Yet many people, obviously, are willing to accept that power level with that body. Hell, I think they're badass looking and have lots of potential.

I do think that the companies are holding back just a little bit, but also have respect for their situation in creating a car that people want, can afford, is safe, meets all the govt requirements, and is likely to recover their R&D costs to create. Overall these businesses are not dumb and if they could create the "great" car for a price that would make them a profit after R&D, production, marketing, manufacturing, etc..., they would.

Although I will have always have great respect for Chebby and their Vette. They seem willing to put a car out there that is very competitive and very well liked....and a majority of the time it outperforms its competition for way less dough.

And maybe its just me....but I do not yet trust the new 5.0. Sure the Fox 5.0 was rock solid. But the new 5.0 is nothing like the old one. I will wait until it proves itself and let the other suckers test it for me.

There are so many people who missed the point of this very old thread, it's unbelievable.

I'm not saying that all of these companies should have an all-out p*ssing war. I'm just saying that none of them go the extra mile to build a better one than the other.

The Corvette ZR1 is a prime example of a car that is built right; it's built for few purposes, and it makes no apologies. It's built to showcase GM technology , performance, and to slaughter the European competiton, for no other reason than to prove that Americans do it best.

Don't forget that its way cheaper than the rest too!

See I think Ford was riding it out....putting out minimal because it could because that was the only car of its kind for a bit. Why not ride out existing tech and pull in max profits while you can.

Then came the Challenger.....then the Camaro. So Ford finally stepped up.

Dodge has been great at putting out cars with lots of power. I don't know about reliability, but I'd happily own an SRT Charger.....4 doors....lots of power....lots of potential.....great grocery getter which is lost these days.

I'll just note a couple things...

The Camaro isn't as fast as the Corvette because it isn't the 'Vette; it's a Camaro.

I'd probably take the 370Z over a new GT, if the offered presented itself today.

Mustang GT?

Oh hellz yeah. But I think its because I prefer a sports car over a sorta muscle car.

actually i think you are the one missing the point. the corvette is a fast and excellent handling car these days, but at what cost? yes if you are going up against ferrari's and that lot, you have a bargain in the vette. in this case it behooves gm to build the very best sports car that they can to maintain their image. but when it comes to the pony car wars, they have to be more practical overall. remember that these are four seaters that generally do double duty as daily driver/toy. these cars have to be reliable and reasonably economical, as well as easy to hop up. while cars like the vette can be one thing, the pony cars have to be all things to all people. one more thing, while all three automakers can build a super hot pony car, the others can easily step up and match them with todays technology, but then price goes way up, as does insurance rates on these cars.

oh and by the way, it is the 9th time in history that the camaro outsold the mustang, assuming the sales rate held up.

Face it, if it wasn't for GM, the 2011 Mustang would still have a 4.6 in it.

Fixt.

Yes, Dodge has been putting out some nice cars with a lot of power, but those cars are hindered by large weight penalties.

Ford did the right thing by riding it out to see what was going to happen with the others.

You say that now. I was all about a 2010 GT, and then I drove a 370Z. I loved the Z. The lines of the car are very nice, and it was awesome to drive. Then, I did some digging. The 370Zs are suffering from overheating issues, even from just spirited driving on the street. Nissan is aware of the problem and their address to it was that they offered an aftermarket oil cooler. What they don't tell you is that the oil cooler runs over $750 (plus installation at an authorized dealer...) and since it's a NISMO aftermarket RACING[/] product, there is no warranty.

I'm waiting on the 2011 GT.

I didn't miss the point. I started the thread.