Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?

Discussion in '2005 - 2014 S-197 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by Z28x, Nov 24, 2003.

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Would you rather the '06 Cobra have a S/C V8 or V10?

  1. Supercharged V8

    78 vote(s)
    46.4%
  2. V10

    90 vote(s)
    53.6%
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  1. sondesign

    sondesign New Member

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    Vanquish


    Ummm... its a V12, NOT A V10..... those two cylinders put the primal balance of the engine in a "harmonically balanced" category, accounting for the nice lope.

    V10 would have a hard time sounding that good, and still remain refined.
     
    #241
  2. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    Just to prove my point about the cost of the V10 vs the V8 I looked it up and the V10 option in the truck is a $600 option over the price of the 5.4 Not bad heh how would you like a 5.8 V10 for only $600 more than the price of the 4.6 GT motor. See my point. And it isn't like they use the 6.8 V10 in anything else either.
     
    #242
  3. sondesign

    sondesign New Member

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    V10 Costs are more than parts boys.


    Just a newbie here, but with inside industry experience, I can tell you that the cost of a engine development goes far beyond "adding two cylinders"

    1) CAFE - A V10 is a HUNGRY engine (displacment = fuel)
    Now the corporation has to account for MORE V10 volume (which is in
    the CAR market, not truck (CAFE for trucks is MUCH lower than cars)
    (This means sales of more 4 bangers, or loss of a V8 somewhere to balance the equation which Ford is already teetering on)
    An entire dyno testing regiment will be required for not only durability,
    but now high mileage CAFE requirements
    Another reason a TRUCK motor is hard to place into a CAR!

    2) Wiring, electircal has to be redeveloped
    3) Production complexity of ANOTHER engine in the plant (ONE part number
    alone costs a corporation $500,000 to track)
    4) Chassis development - New spring/shock development program for
    differing wieght balances
    5) Aero Development - NEW COOLING! THe car has to STILL pass Arizona
    heat and Canada COLD with MORE ENGINE HEAT produced
    Not to mention general aerodynamics with new cooling openings
    BIG MOTOR in SMALL ENGINE BAY = NO GOOD
    6) Development time and $$$ for manufacuting/tooling
    7) V10 for a truck does not = V10 for car. MANY transmission / engine
    schedules will have to be redeveloped for performance / high end vs.
    torque/ low end = expensice engineering development time The engine
    is modular for sure, COMPONENT WISE, but NOT DEVELOPMENT WISE.
    8) And the FINAL CRUSHING BLOW: IMPACT!!! You cannot take a chassis
    developed for a V8, and reduce its crush space by 4" !!!! IT IS NOT
    POSSIBLE! We do engine "proposals" all the time as one-offs in the
    business, but getting that engine through Federal crash standards is
    ALWAYS DIFFICULT. It taks TIME and SPACE to decelerate mass! Without
    SPACE to reduce impact velocity, loads (gs) on the occupants will get so
    high at the end of the event that an occupants brain will literally hit the
    skull and KILL THEM. So, while it is nice to do in the backyard with a
    Mustang from 1969, more cubes in a modern car needs a larger bay to pass
    the Federal Requirments..period. No amount of structure can be added to
    an existing chassis to reduce those loads, becuase only time can. (Deceleration is the derivative of velocity which is the derivative of *distance*

    While the muscle boys at ford can dream, it will be expensive and tough to
    actually produce more than one V10 Mustang. If they do it, Kudos. From my end, it is not likely (Just like the BOSS429 from the last generation platform that was a one-off)
     
    #243
  4. skywarp

    skywarp New Member

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    #244
  5. sondesign

    sondesign New Member

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    Yeah, but remember, there are still a LOT of Expeditions, the Lightning, now the GT, etc that with the ever escalating Hp numbers come a descending CAFE balance, and my point was that truck and car are SEPARATE CAFE standards, so bringing a V10 into the already tipped car CAFE may cause iseues, which getting rid of the Excursion can to nothing for :(
     
    #245
  6. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    1)Cafe: It doesn't matter which engine you put in the car more horsepower means a hungrier motor fuel wise
    2-3) They can do it for the truck. And its only available in the Super Dutys where it competes with the diesel for sales
    4) the 4.6 w/supercharger weights more so they have to do that anyway.
    5) more horsepower equals more heat. It could be argued that the supercharged motor would be harder to cool. The supercharging creates heat and is transfered to an intercooler. The motor has to also create more horsepower in theory to help turn the blower. Again more heat
    6) they can due it all for a measily $600 a motor for the F250
    7) the motor would be a whole whopping 2 inches longer than the old 5.0 . I think they can handle it
     
    #246
  7. sondesign

    sondesign New Member

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    1) The POINT is.... DEVELOPMENT OF A NEW MOTOR FOR CAR CAFE.
    THe truck motor is VERY DIFFERENT than the "Boss 351 V10" which
    would incur the cost of a new motor development, regardless if the parts
    are off the shelf.
    2-3) They can do it for truck because they developed the manufacturing scheme for it, rolled the costs in, and they sell 700K trucks a year to offset those manufacturing costs. Last I checked, the Mustang was the best selling pony car, but not north of 400K units...

    4) But its already done with the 5.4 S.C, that's the point.
    5) True, but again, the development is already started, and they know more
    about that arrangement than taking the truck motor V10 and adapting it
    to a car environment (cast iron block etc)
    6) I gaurantee they do not make all that $600 on the V10, it is a marketing
    tool to compete with RAM, not to mention, again, THAT IS THE TRUCK motor, which was developed on a 700K unit volume program, that would
    have to be COMPLETELY RE-DEVELOPED for the Mustang.

    7) 2 inches in a 30ms (that's 30 MILLISECONDS) impact event is equibalent to 2 miles! Trust me, I have seen the impact charts. PLus, the OLD 5.0 has NO BEARING on a NEW CHASSIS that was designed around a 4.6L engine! Who cares about the 5.0, it is irrelevant. The Fox was developed around a 5.0, therefore it could pass impact with one. The DEW/LS was not.
     
    #247
  8. 351CJ

    351CJ New Member

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    A 429 / 460 engine is 32" long.

    A Mod motor V8 is 28" long.

    Since the bore spacing on the Mod motor is 3.937" that means:

    A Mod motor V10 is 32" long, same as a 429.

    Project Daisy, the new Shelby Cobra has a V10. There are rumors that the new top end Lincoln (Continental) will have an option for a 5.8L V10.

    With split crank rod journals you can get an even firing order with a 90 degree V10, this is how they do it with 90 degree V6's. Does anyone know if the Ford 6.8" V10 does this?

    We've been through this about 10 time already on this thread, but the Viper V10 sounds so bad because it does not have an exhaust crossover. So it sounds like 2 separate I5 engines. Go back earlier in this thread and find the link to the Mustang V10 video and try to tell me that that V10 isn't one awesome sounding engine!
     
    #248
  9. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    Hey buddy. Your not pushing the IQ meter to high are you.
    Equibalent to 2 miles your nuts (by the way its equivalent)
    Hell the DEW wasn't designed around the 4.6 It was designed around the 3.9
     
    #249
  10. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    I have the length of the 4.6 V8 at 27 inches give and take .1 inch depending on which variation.
    And yes the 6.8 V10 has split journals like an even fire 90 degree V6
     
    #250
  11. yellow5.0cobra

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    This chassis is just a little piece of the DEW chassis.

    Dont compare apples and oranges.

    I am SURE they did not adapt the MICRO LS engine bay into a MUSTANG.
     
    #251
  12. SVTdriver

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    Not really. Since the article in 5.0 says everything is a special casting or one-off. So it would appear no developement other than that has gone into the motor.
     
    #252
  13. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    My point exactly. I'm not the one who called it a DEW. It has more in common with the Focus than the DEW so how does he know what it was designed for. As far as the V10 being a one off. Thats how it all starts brother. They don't change over a whole production line just to build a prototype.

    And to all you nay sayers out there. Nothing is impossible. Those who say it can't be done are just to lazy to do it.
     
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  14. SVTdriver

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    I never said it can't be done nor did I deny that it was a prototype. I'm merely pointing out it's not all that cheap. Since they still have developement to do.
     
    #254
  15. sondesign

    sondesign New Member

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    OK Equivalent. I can spell, just can't type. The point still remains, stuffing a V10 that is 2" longer into a
    wall makes for much less crush space, and to re-iterate a point ealier in the thread, todays cars manage crush space down to thousanths of an inch. There isn't much room in today's engine bays so that packages are more length efficient, and lower weight. Hence there are no longer any expansive 12 engine option cars. Most modern cars have three powertrain choices tops. Managing that complexity is only left to the truck market which can afford the complexity. The new Mustang was designed around DEW, but heavily modified for the 4.6L from the Dash plane forward. IT IS NOT A DEW...and nnless the Body/Impact engineers designed the new "DEW/light" platform for a V10 from the beginning, it will be high tide before a V10 Mustang makes it to production just due to Impact crash development costs, which was my point in the first place. No reason why Shelby couldn't do one though.
     
    #255
  16. SVTdriver

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    Although I agree with you. If you have read the rest of the posts on this topic. You will see that people won't believe you. Some people don't believe they have to pass any collision tests.
     
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  17. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    If Ford doesn't do it it will not be done. Shelby in no way has the resources if Ford does not. Now Ford may do it for Shelby. Just a note. Other cars have gone from being built for one engine only to have a completely different engine install at a later date. Since we're talking about the mustang. The Mustang II (pinto based)was never intended to have a V8, it was designed to have the 2.8 V6 as its largest engine. But yet a year later ended up with the 302. Just another side note. I do not have the exact figures for the 6.8 but it was just a drop in the bucket to the 700,000 truck sales one of you quoted. The list said that the 5.4 accounted for almost 600,000 of the motors produced that year and the rest were split between the 4.6 base engine and the 6.8 V10 out of these 2 which would you guess would sell in higher volume. As far as developement the tuning would be easiest of all because the arcitecture is already in place. The other two cylinders ar just that an extra 2 cylinders same cam timing, same intake runner length same compression ratio same spark and timing curves. And a set of 3v Heads are infact already being made for the 6.8 that could swap to it the same as the 3V 5.4 heads have swapped to the 4.6 By the way its a good thing they don't make inline sixes anymore or everybody would be walking around with there brains hanging out there eye sockets. I've been around cars a long time but you guys throw bull around with the Best of them !! Happy New Year and Just Thank God we finally get a New Mustang after all these years. Amen
     
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  18. SVTdriver

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    You do realize using the mustang II is not exactly a good comparision to the modern cars and theirdesigns right?
     
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  19. BigBlockStang

    BigBlockStang New Member

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    Dude your a pipe dreamer. The current mustang chassis dates back to the 77 Fairmont They still made pinto stangs in 78 Unibody construction goes all the way back to the late fifties,early sixties They still make them the same way. Hell the Crown Vic is still on a chassis fron the seventies. Full frame and all. I was playing with these things since you were just a sparkle in your childhood moms eye. And believe me when I say this a late sixties unibody was much easier to walk away from a tremendous crash then any of these new junks(except with airbags). I had the totaled reck in my driveway for years. The driver was not wairing a seatbelt hit a thick telephone pole ten feet in the air at only god knows what speed (destroid the three foot around telephone pole) then he walked 20 miles because he couldn't change the tire in the dark. There wasn't anyplace to put it anyway.And no his brain did not explode. Oh by the way you could fit a V12 (2 duratecs sandwiched together)in the engine bay of the new mustang, plenty of room there. But then there wouldnt be as much crush room as a current mustang. These mustangs aren't packaged as tight as 90 percent of the cars out there.And the new ones even have more room. Long hood, short deck remember.
     
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  20. SVTdriver

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    Wow now you know my age as well as all the design specs on the new mustang? And yet you seem to be ignoring the facts. Like all the magazines state the V-10 was special castings and one-off pieces. So no developement had been done. But I shall quote from mm&ff mag. "A special block was cut and pasted together and then the aluminum block was cast and machined." Like the block the heads were formed using casts that were cut and pasted" Toppping the V-10 is a hand built aluminum intake". It also has a billet crank. And considering all the parts needed like 2 mafsand 2 EEC V processors, vortech rails and paxton fuel pump all add price.
    This info kinda makes your post on only the block being a special casting ignorant.

    It is not the truck engine so comparing it to the truck engine price is ludacris.I believe it has also been posted elsewhere they have broken 7 clutches. So that would also need some design work. And where did you get dimensions on the new mustang engine bay. They just unveiled the production model. As for crashes. In nearly any wreck someone has a chance to walk away. I've seen plenty of accidents where someone got lucky and walked away when they should have been killed. Citing 1 accident as proof is again ignorant. And other than cite the mustang 2 you did nothing to dispute sondesign's statements. But please since you can predict my age enlighten me.
     
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