How To Get 500+ HP Out Of 4.6?
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40th GT
New Member
it all depends on what else the car has. If youre trying to get there with boost alone, itll take quite a bit. If you have support like cams/heads that help the overall scope of things, it will take less.
Remember, you will also need a fuel system capible of meeting the demands of that much airflow.
Remember, you will also need a fuel system capible of meeting the demands of that much airflow.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
T-70 turbo
Check my sig...
I have a stock motor.
Good luck
remember, boost doesn't = power
CFM does. (Volume of air)
I had a v-2 sq running 10 psi. Made 402RWHP and 386RWTQ
I now have a T-70 turbo @ 10 psi. Making 468RWHP and 555RWTQ
Check my sig...
I have a stock motor.
Good luck
remember, boost doesn't = power
CFM does. (Volume of air)
I had a v-2 sq running 10 psi. Made 402RWHP and 386RWTQ
I now have a T-70 turbo @ 10 psi. Making 468RWHP and 555RWTQ
THANK YOU!
Airflow is what makes the power, PSI is just how much the source has to push to get it there.
blacksheep-1
Member
- Oct 21, 2006
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FWIW, I was in Orlando at Corvette masters dyno. 2 buds were there as well. They dyno'd both cars.
#1 04 Cobra w/ pulley, X pipe and a chip= 474rwhp
#2 04 Cobra w/pulley, X pipe,chip, longtubes = 520 rwhp
Neither engine had been apart at all, not even the heads (I know both cars). Both are driven on a regular basis. So.. if it were me, I would just copy what Ford has already done. I wil say this, spend the extra $$ and have it dyno tuned. BTW, I don't know where you are located, but you might try these guys: www.jmschip.com
#1 04 Cobra w/ pulley, X pipe and a chip= 474rwhp
#2 04 Cobra w/pulley, X pipe,chip, longtubes = 520 rwhp
Neither engine had been apart at all, not even the heads (I know both cars). Both are driven on a regular basis. So.. if it were me, I would just copy what Ford has already done. I wil say this, spend the extra $$ and have it dyno tuned. BTW, I don't know where you are located, but you might try these guys: www.jmschip.com
Hey man i noticed you have the 70mm turbo thats what im getting in march, but anyway how much power you think i can push with 9psi on a fully built 2v motor with turbo cams ported and polished heads. O and my tuner is badd arrss and if you wana give me a guess on how much HP on maybe 20psi (race gas) give it a
shot.
the98stang
Active Member
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
CENTENNIALSTANG, If you have all forged internals your motor should be good to at least 900HP. You will need a fuel system to keep up. 60# injectors, Larger fuel line from tank to fuel rail, and a kick ass pump. Right now I only have 42# injectors, but am currently limited by them. The fuel pump upgrade is where your wallet gets hit. You can put the cobra fuel tank in with the cobra pumps, or get an aeromotive inline pump and convert it to a return style fuel system. Personally, I will be staying returnless as the guy that does my tuning is making over 800RWHP now on an '05 with a returnless system.
http://www.modularmadness.com/gpage2.html
And if you have forged internals, don't stay at 9 psi, it is a waste!!! I would run 1 bar (14.7psi) on 93 octane. You should see close to 600rwhp with that and a conservative tune.
Remember to run a massive intercooler!!!
...like mine:
I'm going on 8 months and 95,000 miles. Although my tranny is making lots of bad noises now. VERY seldom do I rev the motor over 5,500rpm. Might make the differance, might not do anything at all.
http://www.modularmadness.com/gpage2.html
And if you have forged internals, don't stay at 9 psi, it is a waste!!! I would run 1 bar (14.7psi) on 93 octane. You should see close to 600rwhp with that and a conservative tune.
Remember to run a massive intercooler!!!
...like mine:
I'm going on 8 months and 95,000 miles. Although my tranny is making lots of bad noises now. VERY seldom do I rev the motor over 5,500rpm. Might make the differance, might not do anything at all.
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LaserRed01GT
Banned
Depends if you're talking at the crank or to the tire. 500 at the crank is easily doable on stock internals much less a built bottom end. I make 423 to the tire on my 125 shot and I spray it at least 3-4 times a week without any problems to my stock bottom end. That is roughly 498 HP at the crank. The 400 RWHP limit to the stock bottom end is a myth. I know of several guys making well over 400 RWHP on stock internals and have been driving the car for a long time.
Seems like alot of people on here are confusing the word block for the entire bottom end. The block itself can EASILY handle 500 RWHP. It's the rotating assembly that has it's limitations once you start to exceed 450 RWHP, namely the pistons and rods.
If you were to decide to use a centrifugal blower, I would without a doubt go with a Pro Charger. The sky is the limit with their head units and their intercoolers are top notch as well. Pro Charger is light years ahead of the competition.
The P-1SC is one of the "lightweight" models and will support easily over 850 HP at the crank. Pro Charger has head units that will support over 2,500 HP.
Don't forget to include in the chassis/suspension supporting mods to get that thing to dig.
Seems like alot of people on here are confusing the word block for the entire bottom end. The block itself can EASILY handle 500 RWHP. It's the rotating assembly that has it's limitations once you start to exceed 450 RWHP, namely the pistons and rods.
If you were to decide to use a centrifugal blower, I would without a doubt go with a Pro Charger. The sky is the limit with their head units and their intercoolers are top notch as well. Pro Charger is light years ahead of the competition.
The P-1SC is one of the "lightweight" models and will support easily over 850 HP at the crank. Pro Charger has head units that will support over 2,500 HP.Don't forget to include in the chassis/suspension supporting mods to get that thing to dig.
the98stang
Active Member
The 400 RWHP limit to the stock bottom end is a myth. I know of several guys making well over 400 RWHP on stock internals and have been driving the car for a long time.
If you were to decide to use a centrifugal blower, I would without a doubt go with a Pro Charger. The sky is the limit with their head units and their intercoolers are top notch as well. Pro Charger is light years ahead of the competition.
.
The "400WHP limit" is not really a "myth". Many people slap on a blower, push 350WHP with a ****ty tune, and blow the motor because they redline it 5-6 times a day. On the other hand, some have been able to push 500, even 600WHP on a very safe tune and the car has lasted years. Generally most people keep it under 450WHP, because as you said, that's when the rods/pistons have problems. It all depends on the tune, the kind of blower, and the type of driver.
As for procharger being "top notch"- I'm not sure about that one. Many of those chargers having leaking problems. On top of that, Prochargers are highly overrated when it comes to CFM/HP rates. I have yet to see a p1sc that has made more than 600WHP, and yet the Vortech s-trim has been proven to make 600WHP- Tim at MPH has done so. Procharger claims the p1SC is capable of 1200 cfm and 825 HP (about 700WHP). That is definetely BS because Vortech s-trims are rated at 1000cfm and 580WHP (according to Vortech). If you want REAL power, you need a novi2000, Vortech T-trim, or KB 2.6 . The P1sc just can't keep up with those blowers. Period.
CENTENNIALSTANG, If you have all forged internals your motor should be good to at least 900HP. You will need a fuel system to keep up. 60# injectors, Larger fuel line from tank to fuel rail, and a kick ass pump. Right now I only have 42# injectors, but am currently limited by them. The fuel pump upgrade is where your wallet gets hit. You can put the cobra fuel tank in with the cobra pumps, or get an aeromotive inline pump and convert it to a return style fuel system. Personally, I will be staying returnless as the guy that does my tuning is making over 800RWHP now on an '05 with a returnless system.
http://www.modularmadness.com/gpage2.html
And if you have forged internals, don't stay at 9 psi, it is a waste!!! I would run 1 bar (14.7psi) on 93 octane. You should see close to 600rwhp with that and a conservative tune.
Remember to run a massive intercooler!!!
...like mine:
I'm going on 8 months and 95,000 miles. Although my tranny is making lots of bad noises now. VERY seldom do I rev the motor over 5,500rpm. Might make the differance, might not do anything at all.
Sweet ride man thanx for the advice!
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Rickey_Bobby
New Member
the98stang
Active Member
My vote is still for turbo. Makes more torque than ANY blower.
Even the KB2.6.
And its $800
It costs more money, and takes more time to fab. And very few kits are emissions legal or CARB certified.
So if you have tons of cash and time, I guess turbos are the better choice.
It's all personal preference. We could argue all day...
LaserRed01GT
Banned
Yes, it is a myth. Just because a few boneheads mistreat their motor or do not have the common sense to get it properly tuned, automatically excludes them from being allowed into statistical reality.
You see, I am sure. I have been doing blower installs on cars for a long time now. Vortech makes some good products, but they aren't even close to the engineering quality of the ATI stuff....not even close.
ATI had a very limted batch of bad compressor housing seals. The problem was instantly realized and has long since been remedied, and ATI made good on all the customer's head units. EVERY parts manufacturer is going to have a small problem every once in a while, it's unavoidable.
ATI overrated claims??? You obviously have ATI confused with Vortech. ATI sued Vortech a while back in '99 because ATI flat out busted Vortech making outrageously overstated claims as to power increases and "claimed" duarability and performance of their kits. Vortech was also releasing false information that was vastly understating the performance, HP gains, and durability of the ATI products. Then ATI called out Vortech to some head-to-head testing and of course Vortech pussed out and declined. And needless to say, ATI won their lawsuit.
http://www.procharger.com/lawsuit.html
I recently helped tune a 1996 Impala with a 383" LT4 w/ a P-1SC. It made 734 RWHP after all was said and done. And that was through a 4L80E and a 12 Bolt. So that is not enough for you? Step up to the D-1SC...850 RWHP no problem. Still not enough for you? Ok, how about the D-3R....1500 RWHP easy. Still not enough? How about the F-3R or F-4R....2000+ RWHP.
When I was at the PRI show in 2003 promoting my chassis business, Vortech announced that their latest top of the line race blower would be able to support up to 2,000 HP. A full two years later once they were able to even produce a head unit to test, it only ended up making 1,311 HP....needless to say far from their claim of 2,000 HP and needless to say Vortech once again embarrassed themselves to the entire world. Now Vortech is trying to re-market that same blower (V28) as the "new" V28-130 and are claiming again it will support 1800-2000 HP. All they changed from the last time was the new sprag drive.
Pro Charger has won 17 National Championships in the last 3 years. No other centrifugal blower manufacturer is even close to that. Guess what the quickest and fastest centrifugally powered Pro Car is right now....a Pro Mustang driven by Don Walsh Jr. that has gone 6.43 @ 216, and you guessed it...it is powered by a Pro Charger. When you are ready to play with the big boys, you better have a Pro Charger under the hood.
Rickey_Bobby
New Member
I owned a vortech, When I first bolted it on I cried. I couldn't feel a differance. Its like going from a stock air filter, to a K&N.
Took a tiny pulley and custom tune to wake it up.
Prochargers make lots of power, but do so very unefficiently. Roughly 55% compressor efficiency.
Vortech is slightly better at 65%, but are over rated in the advertising for total flow capabilities.
Turbo is 75% efficient
And as for fabbing the turbo kit, my total cost was $1900, including the FMIC, turbo, mandrel bends, Waste Gate, and Bypass valve. All new parts.
Only thing you have to "MAKE" is the exhaust piping. All it is is welding pipe bends together. Takes some time (2 weeks about 4 hrs a day) to get everything done, but is by no means HARD to do.
As for emmissions, I don't have them in FL. SO you would be screwed there. Check out www.turbochargedpower.com
Took a tiny pulley and custom tune to wake it up.
Prochargers make lots of power, but do so very unefficiently. Roughly 55% compressor efficiency.
Vortech is slightly better at 65%, but are over rated in the advertising for total flow capabilities.
Turbo is 75% efficient
And as for fabbing the turbo kit, my total cost was $1900, including the FMIC, turbo, mandrel bends, Waste Gate, and Bypass valve. All new parts.
Only thing you have to "MAKE" is the exhaust piping. All it is is welding pipe bends together. Takes some time (2 weeks about 4 hrs a day) to get everything done, but is by no means HARD to do.
As for emmissions, I don't have them in FL. SO you would be screwed there. Check out www.turbochargedpower.com
LaserRed01GT
Banned
I owned a vortech, When I first bolted it on I cried. I couldn't feel a differance. Its like going from a stock air filter, to a K&N.
Took a tiny pulley and custom tune to wake it up.
Prochargers make lots of power, but do so very unefficiently. Roughly 55% compressor efficiency.
Vortech is slightly better at 65%, but are over rated in the advertising for total flow capabilities.
Turbo is 75% efficient
And as for fabbing the turbo kit, my total cost was $1900, including the FMIC, turbo, mandrel bends, Waste Gate, and Bypass valve. All new parts.
Only thing you have to "MAKE" is the exhaust piping. All it is is welding pipe bends together. Takes some time (2 weeks about 4 hrs a day) to get everything done, but is by no means HARD to do.
As for emmissions, I don't have them in FL. SO you would be screwed there. Check out www.turbochargedpower.com
I feel ya on the Vortech installs. Sometimes they just aren't even worth the effort when factoring in their parasitic loss
You are speaking of adiabatic efficency. That is the the ratio of the work input required to raise the pressure of the incoming atmosphere to a specified value in a isentropic manner to the actual work input. Turbochargers without a doubt do that best, but the Pro Charger comes in a very strong second.
When speaking about thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and aerodynamics in terms of adiabatic efficiency, +/- 1% is a big deal. You can't just throw around generalizations as to various adiabatic efficiency ratings, it is a very precise measurement. For a centrifugal compressor to exhibit a 55% AE, it would have to have serious mechanical damage (in other words not normally possible.)
The self contained ATI Pro Charger compressors have been shown to exhibit around a 71-74% AE. This is due to the angle of the a outlet, superior impellar design and tolerances, and the less heat generated by their proprietary self contained lubrication which significantly reduces compressor heat. This all translates into a relatively high AE, and this is precisely how a Pro Charger is more efficienct than the others and makes way more power.
The Vortechs are around 65-67% AE. The hot engine oil design and the 90 degree outlets are just a few of the things that really hurt the AE of their compressors and hence why they are less reliable, are much "whinier", and make less HP.
Turbos are usually around 76-78% AE, and surprisingly do not show a whole lot of difference in the midsections of compressor maps when compared to the Pro Charger compressors. Turbos earn their keep up high.
This info was obtained by an independent test that Kroyer Racing Engines performed just a few years back in 2004.
the98stang
Active Member
A few boneheads? By a few do you mean hundreds of people?
How are they "even close to the engineering quality of the ATI stuff"? Please explain in detail. Why do hundreds of people love Vortech for their quality products and results? Why do hundreds of people complain about ATI and their leaky head units? I don't think it was "just a bad batch".
Obviously every parts manufactually will have problems every once in a while. But how can you say " ATI made good on all the customer's head units"? By that do you mean charged hundreds of dollars to have the problem fixed? That's crappy customer service if you ask me. If I bought a BRAND NEW blower for thousands of dollars and it took a crap within months, I would be PISSED. They better fix that damn thing for FREE, no questions asked.
I don't care what happened in 1999 buddy. That was eight years ago. That was then, and this is NOW. The fact is, ATI falsely advertises their product. Have you seen the recent test results comparing both the p1sc and the s-trim? The S-trim can creat more power hands down.
I don't care what the Impala made. Were talking about MUSTANGS. Please find me a mustang that has made more than 550+WHP on the P1sc. Show me the time slip. Then I will shut up.
In case you havn't noticed, the supercharger doesn't make the entire car as fast as it is. What about the suspension? The driver capability? The transmission and engine? There are many variables that make a fast car. So you CANNOT come here and say that procharger is the "BEST" because "the quickest and fastest centrifugally powered Pro Car is right now has a procharger on it".
Obviously everyone has their own opinion on what supercharger is the best to use. I like Vortech because as of now, mostly everyone is satisfied with their kits. Why are so many people pleased with their mongoose kits from MPH? You tell me?
Remember to run a massive intercooler!!!
...like mine:
w00t ebay FMIC FTW! I ran the same (well, looks exactly the same) core on my 97 Eclipse GST Spyder with awesome results. one day we were able to rig a post-IC IAT and log it via DSMlink, and compared to a spearco of the same design and size, mine was showing temps of 10-20* cooler and had less pressure drop(IE pressure read at maf as compared to pressure read at GM 3bar MAP sensor on the manifold). Plus the other guy spend 1000$ on his kit before piping, i spend 300$ total.
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jivepepper
Founding Member
Show me one p1sc that has broke 600rwhp on 4.6l 2v without nitrous.
The strim has.
http://www. modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18244&highlight=vortech
Take the space out after www.
Thanks for the link back to prochargers site.
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